Gee, 3 whole people suggested a possible solution to your issue, along with personal experiences. I never saw anyone say it couldn’t be allergies.
BTW - it’s not uncommon for a horse to test “allergic” to everything on the planet (how is the horse still alive??) when the immune system is compromised to some degree. Fix the issue, and “magically” the horse doesn’t test allergic to nearly as many things.
[QUOTE=Regina DiNovi;3834020]
Could someone PM their worming protocol?
Thanks,
Gina[/QUOTE]
TheHorse.com has a worming webinar. They suggest two worming protocols.
so, not to start a debate… but from what i have read, the microfilea of neck thread worms are what can cause issues for some horses - but what is actually causing the issues is the microfilia dying and since adult NTW live in the horse and can’t be killed with wormer, the minute you start worming and kill off the micofilea that are infesting new ones come and take their place… it is an ongoing cycle.
also people keep saying they are seeing the Microfilariae but they are microscopic… and so i have no idea what folks are seeing but it isnt Microfilariae !
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/71804.htm
i would also be curious to see if anyone has actually had their horse biopsied… to see if what is going on actually is NTW… anyone?
Merck reports that horses infested with NTW may not show any clinical signs and many that do shows clinical signs dont have NTW …
i just think that people really like to be “doing” what everyone else is doing… and clearly is it is now cool to “DD” you horse
i hope people do some research and base their treatments on real scientific data…
and finally, as in many things… horses with “skin crud” can and do heal themselves… and whatever treatment was being used at that time will undoubtedly be attributed to the horse being “healed”
and one final note: while heavy worm loads are not a good thing - this idea of horses are needing to be 100% worm free is just -unnatural. most horses are capable of self healing/self cleaning etc the normal worms that live within them… it is only when that system gets out of whack that things get bad.
.
Given that the adults can live 10+ years, you’re right, it can be a long ongoing cycle.
But live worms have been associated (more than anecdotally) with things like contracted tendons, suspensory desmitis, nuchal ligament issues, and fistulous withers.
Merck reports that horses infested with NTW may not show any clinical signs and many that do shows clinical signs dont have NTW …
Not surprising at all. It doesn’t mean you should assume they are not a problem, nor does it mean you should assume they are 
ei hope people do some research and base their treatments on real scientific data…
sometimes the field IS the research.
and finally, as in many things… horses with “skin crud” can and do heal themselves… and whatever treatment was being used at that time will undoubtedly be attributed to the horse being “healed”
Sure, it happens all the time - the result may be coincidental. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a valid point in looking to see if there was indeed a direct correlation between the 2.
and one final note: while heavy worm loads are not a good thing - this idea of horses are needing to be 100% worm free is just -unnatural. most horses are capable of self healing/self cleaning etc the normal worms that live within them… it is only when that system gets out of whack that things get bad.
.
I don’t think any one has advocated a 100% worm-free horse. I know I haven’t, and in several parasite threads have mentioned 100% free is not the ldeal goal.
Indeed. Controlling the infestation of your pastures should be an equal priority. Hard to do that without deworming.
[QUOTE=JB;3835007]
But live worms have been associated (more than anecdotally) with things like contracted tendons, suspensory desmitis, nuchal ligament issues, and fistulous withers…[/QUOTE]
do you have that research? the Merck site seems to be implying its anecdotal
[QUOTE=EqTrainer;3836321]
Indeed. Controlling the infestation of your pastures should be an equal priority. Hard to do that without deworming.[/QUOTE]
i spend a large amount of time picking poop from the pastures/paddocks/etc - that along with fecal counts & timing my worming (not every 6 weeks) seems to be doing the trick.
What schedule/classes do you use?
There are multiple onchocerca types that can affect equines.
Onchocerca Cervicalis is the one that typically invades the neck. Onchocerca reticulata - adult forms are known to be found in the tendons and suspensory ligaments of equines.
I don’t think it would take much to project that adult forms could create damage.
Effects of parasite if left untreated: Adult worms in the ligaments and tendons cause swelling and pain. There can also be bumps under the skin on ligaments and tendons caused by the hardening of dead worms. If these bumps disable the horse, surgery may be necessary. The presence of the adult worms may also cause lameness and swelling of the ligaments.
From what I could find - skin biopsies are the most researched for the cervicalis. Reticulata is found through disection. Since contracted tendons occur primarily in foals and is usually treated through a variety of not always successful treatments - it would be difficult to study without euthanizing all foals with contracted tendons just to see what is causing it. JMO.
There are plenty of studies, dating back to the 70’s, of the results of necropsies and Onchocerca. Anyone curious can do a search and pull them up. I think it has been done repeatedly on this thread. When I did it I was actually surprised at how much information there was on them - and how there was no recognition of them otherwise. However… I think this thread is actually impacting the “world of worms” because this study I have (the 8 page one, that I may end up just having to type out, the copy is so bad) refers to them. Smartpak has added verbage about them too. My vet still has no idea what they are but that’s ok, I don’t expect her to know everything… I would prefer her to educate herself about other things, I can do this myself!
what i was specifically asking about is studies that rain rot etc are the result of neck thread worms. not that they actually exist in the ligaments etc.
has anyone had their horse biopsied?
as for smart pak and others adding language - sure because they know it is the new big fad and that if they want to make $$$ they better get with the times and keep their customers happy. (ie support their ideas of what is “wrong” with their horses)
this isnt unique to this fad - it is like this will all fads.
Rain rot is not a direct result of NTWs and I don’t believe anyone here has posted that. I think what’s been said is that RR can be caused by a parasite load. RR is a clinical sign of several issues.
First - dermatitis that arises from being wet, slightly dirty, unable to dry off, etc. (hence the rain rot). Infections within places where the skin is broken.
Second - a horse whose immune system is not sufficient enough to counter any dermatitis. There are different ways to boost an immune system: reduce parasites, add anti-oxidants, add medications to fight off any internal infections.
Dermatitis can form when there is any break in the skin or it can form in hair follicles. If a horse is subject to skin breakage from any type of insect or parasite, it leaves a place for dermatitis to start.
Think about the chronic condition of scratches that many horses suffer from. It’s an inflammation of skin tissue. Frequently vets prescribe both a topical and an oral supplement to combat scratches.
I believe that there may be posts that allude to the possibility that the subject horse doesn’t actually have rain rot - people say “my horse has bumps, or losing hair, or little crusties” and wonder if it’s rain rot and how to treat it. And it goes from there.
Deworming a horse in the best possible manner will - 99% of the time - help it boost its own immune system which will allow it to fight off minor infections and develop immunity to some parasites.
Yep, somewhere buried in this thread are links to several scientific references to the relationship between NTW and the various ailments listed, including the tendons and ligaments.
is this not saying that rain rot is from ntw or parasites?
[QUOTE=little D;3830886]
First I must say that I probably will regret even posting this but here goes. I advocate deworning for rain rot and other fungus problems. I have studied this for the last ten years. No I have not had a lab but I am like others able to do clinical trials which I did do. I primarily did these for lameness problems but in the process found evidence that in fact what was thought to be fungus is most likely a parasite die off.
the parasites begin to die coming to the surface. as they do so coming out thru the hair folliculs. an abudance of them creates a scab like appearance. It has been noted by labs that a fungus grows under the scabby areas so it was beleived that a fungas was the cause. At some point more testing was done by some labs and then it was decided that there was a virus that was growing under the scabs and that must be what was causing the fungus. I maintain that the parasites die off presents the perfect enviroment for fungus and virus.
These parasites present different skin conditions for different stages of their larvae life. This can be proven by using the dewormers and noting the results.
I was a horse breeder. at the time that I did the testing I had 52 horses. I did different wormers and testing with different horses that primarily presented skin conditions. this was done over a ten year period. I can say without any dought that If I had not found a way to help these horses some would have definately died.
Most of you will find that your vets are very sceptical. I personally found that I did not like the answers that I was getting. allergies with expensive treatments was the main answer. there are millions of dollars every year spent on vet visits and treatments that only treat the symptoms not the problem. boy that sure is job security to treat the symptoms and not the problem.
One thing about this country. this is America. No one is twisting anyones arms to do anything to your horse. It is up to the owner to do what they believe to be right for them and their animals. If you want to take the advice of your vet and do nothing besides treating for symptoms thats up to the individual. On the other hand no one should tromple on those who are treating their own.
If you will look on the inserts of your equimax boxes in the indications for treatment it says for skin dermatitis it is the last one mentioned. for those that dont know what that is. this means skin disorders or conditions of the skin. Keep in mind that rain rot is a skin condition. It is also non specific.
This covers a broad spectrim of conditions. I am sure the makers of Equimax have done their home work.[/QUOTE]
It is hardly a wild extrapolation to think that a horse who is prone to rain rot has an immune system that is not functioning well. It is not a wild extrapolation to think that by controlling a horses parasite load better, you might then enable the immune system to recover.
Rain rot - generic term for funguses and bacterias that live in the skin - are always present on every horse. It is only the horses whose immune systems are compromised that will actually become symptomatic.
My horses never have rain rot. I have had horses come here for rehab whose owners deliver them w/bags full of topicals to treat rain rot and they are indeed covered in it. I smile and set the bag aside and begin the deworming. To be fair - I also provide optimal nutrition and a low stress environment. But my horses who are in hard work and travel to school or show do not have rain rot issues either. The most telltale sign to me that influencing the immune system positively (and I don’t mean boosting it, I don’t buy into that one) is the best thing you can do for skin issues was that when Killian began to spiral downhill (laminitis from a reaction to a vaccination, ended up revealing itself to be systemic) he broke out in rain rot. He was not out in the rain 
in fact, he was living in an immaculately clean stall 24/7. Interesting to note that he broke out in the pattern seen most often - across the back spreading down the flanks just as if he had been rained on and the water ran down him. Of course it was soon revealed that his immune system had totally broken down.
Long term treatment and winter protocol
While the recent philosophical debate is interesting, I want to thank those who’ve contributed to this thread for the benefit of alerting us all to an issue that truly flies below the radar for most horse owners. The debate is helpful for voicing the questions that many lurkers may have, but the bottom line is that the open exchange of information is greatly profitable to us all.
I have a horse with unexplained dermatitis and was given the opinion, “probably allergies, do you want to test?” I felt uncertain of this advice, although there seemed to be no alternative explanations until, through a chain of events, I came across this information about onchocerca. Looking back on my horse’s record, the onset of dermatitis did coincide with ivermectin deworming. Many of the ‘anecdotes’ and photos fit what was happening with my horse.
Well, one can disparage anecdotes, but they were exceedingly helpful to me and I hope others will post their stories if they have been lurking. I began the recommended treatment. I knew I was taking a risk in following advice from the internet, but I had personally come to the conclusion that doing something was better than doing nothing but calling this horse “allergic to the world,” doomed forever to suffer or be doped up with antihistamines. He responded to the treatments exactly as others have described. My other horse, who came to the farm with a moderate case of rain rot was also treated likewise and that cleared up without further treatment.
One question for the naysayers . . . What alternative explanation would you offer to the observation that a particular horse responds to an ivermectin treatment within 3 days with an itchy and patchy dermatitis that then subsides, and tends to return at 2-3 weeks post-treatment? I honestly do want to know if there is another explanation of that phenomenon. And I do agree that more scientific studies would be delightful, but in the meantime I’m trying to do the best I can to help my horse in the here and now.
For my horse, the treatment protocol was initiated in late fall, and I found that bathing the horse frequently with a mild (not medicated) shampoo post-treatment helped a lot with the horse’s discomfort. However, now we’re in the depths of winter, high temps around the low 20’s, and bathing is no longer a feasible option. If possible, I’d prefer to avoid systemic medical treatment, like with antihistamines or anti-inflammatories.
So my questions to the believers are . . .
Info included with Equimax Paste re: Summer Sores and Dermatitis
I pulled out the insert from a box of Equimax. I haven’t typed everything that was on the insert - which includes the results of a safety study (where they gave mares 3x the dose EVERY 2 WEEKS before being bred, all through the pregnancy and afterwards!! EE gadds); includes precations, dosing, etc. etc. But this info is what Little D is referring to.
From Product Enclosure for Equimax.
INDICATIONS: Consult your veterinarian for assistance in the diagnosis, treatment and control of parasitism. Equimax (ivermectin/praziquantal) Paste is indicated for the treatment and control of the following parasites:
Tapeworms
Large Strongyles (Adults)
– sub listing of 5 species–
Small Strongyles (Adults, including those resistant to some bensimidazole class compounds)
– sub listing of 5 species–
Small Strongyles (fourth stage larvae)
Pinworms (adults and fourth-stage larvae)
– sub listing of 1 species–
Ascarids (adults and third- and fourth-stage larvae)
– sub listing of 1 species–
Hairworms (adults)
– sub listing of 1 species–
Large-mouth Stomach Worms (adults)
– sub listing of 1 species–
Bots (oral and gastric stages)
– sub listing of 1 species–
Lungworms (adults and fourth-stage larvae)
– sub listing of 1 species–
Intestinal Threadworms (adults)
– sub listing of 1 species–
Summer Sores caused by Habronema and Drashcia spp. cutaneous third-stage larvae.
Dermatitis caused by Neck Threadworm microfilariae, Onchocerca sp.
NOTE TO USER: Swelling and itching reactions after treatment with ivermectin paste have occurred in horses carrying heavy infections of neck threadowrm (Onchocerca sp. microfilariae). These reactions were most likely the result of microfilariae dying in large numbers. Symptomatic treatment may be advisable. Consult your veterinarian should any such reactions occur. Healing of summer sores involving extensive tissue changes may require other appropriate therapy in conjuntion with treatment with Equimax Paste. Reinfection, and measures for its prevention, should also be considered. Consult your veterinarian if the condition does not improve.
Now then. Dermatitis can be rain rot or other skin afflictions.
So. Let people decide based on their situation and their discussion with their vet.
Awesome gabz, thanks!
I guess it’s be sure to use adequate amounts of dewormer when treating. Not underdosing. Using ivermectin and if necessary, double dosing with ivermectin or Equimax when signs of midline dermatitis is evident.
Using fly sprays and fly sheets to avoid biting midges carrying the microfilariae from one horse to another.
I live in a climate zone where it’s deep freeze for a few months each year. While the deep freeze doesn’t knock out many other parasites. I do believe it gets rid of biting midges which serve to reinfect horses. So determining when these are most prevalent MAY determine timing for stringent treatment.
The skin reaction is caused by die-off. But I think it’s also caused by the biting midges that transfer the microfilariae. When there’s no biting midges, there’s little, if any, dermatitis reaction.
OR… the adult onchocerca only produce during certain timeframes based on length of day - much like some other internal parasites do. They may only shed eggs during periods when midges are feeding in order to perpetuate the species. ??? (I’m no biologist / scientist / vet)
Obviously, there is much more research out there - but since this is a condition that was identified many years before (1960 - 70s) the advent of the internet, that info won’t be found using internet searches.
Yep, bumping up again!
I was looking up some info on uveitis, and lookee here! I do not recall (and ain’t lookin’! :lol:) if this connection was mentioned, but just in case:
http://www.igs.net/~vkirkwoodhp/eru.htm
The most common parasite connected with uveitis is onchocerca. Culicoides, a biting midge of the Ceiatopogonidae family, is believed to be the primary transmitter. The adult lives in the connective tissue of the horse’s neck and the microfilariae travel throughout the body. The most common signs of it are sores breaking out on the midline of the horse’s stomach, base of the mane and withers and uveitis in the horse’s eye(s) (French, 1988). Uveitis occurs when there are large quantities of dead microfilariae in the eye. Normally the eye can handle the live ones but the dead give off large amounts of antigens and these cause inflammation in the eye (Schwink, op cit p. 560). Ironically for horse owners, onchocerca can sometimes first be identified by the onset of symptoms following worming with ivermectin. This is one drug that will effectively kill off the young microfilariae, but at the same time by doing its job it can initiate uveitis if a large quantity of the microfilariae are in the eye at the time of worming.
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