And then she goes to Tapit the following year. What should we name her babies?
I have mixed emotions on this. I applaud Mandy Pope for shelling out the cash for these top mares; but I don’t always agree with her breeding theories. To me, her theories are to breed for the catalog sire for the sales, not for the long term benefit of what breeding may be best on the mare. The art of breeding is out the window.
Nothing against Arrogate; he was a top shelf horse on the track, but I think there are better options out there. This decision was clearly to get one of the first arrogate offspring out of the top maiden mare for sales purposes. Everyone is going to want that first Songbird offspring. Arrogate is too big for my taste and his work ethic has always been sub par; he was an extremely late bloomer and when he did bloom it was short lived. I think his size is going to carry on to his offspring and I think his size negatively impacted him in the long run. He was a great horse, yes, but I think he could’ve been a lot better. I am interested to see Arrogate in a years time but he is lanky. weedy, in appearance.
Songbird, being a Medaglia Doro has the confirmation, the balance, the substance and type that Arrogate lacks. Funny thing is Arrogates Dam has a 2015 Medaglia Doro filly that is unraced and she is rebred to Tapit for 2018.
I’d personally like to see Songbird bred to Honor Code. Honor Code is one of the, confirmationally, best stallions in the industry today. On top of that, he was an extremely successful colt on the track. His dam was successful on the track and is the dam to more than one graded stakes winner. I think Honor Code would be one of the best compliments to Song Bird and would produce a conformationally correct foal that would show very well at the sales.
Even American Pharoah would be a better compliment to Songbirds pedigree and conformation than Arrogate. The American Pharoah weanlings are some of the best conformed, most complete group of babies we have seen in some time. And the best thing about AP was his work ethic, his joy for his work, and his overall temperament which exuded him on the track. I hope that is transferred to his offspring as they will have a lot of heart.
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One day I hope I am blessed to have a horse who generates so many strong opinions from the armchair quarterbacks.
I only saw about 1,000 posts on social media critiquing the announcement. (That might be a low estimate)
:lol:
I’ve got no name suggestions, but hoping to hear some creative ones!
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^^^ IKR- wouldn’t kick anything with that conformation or race record out of my barn!!!
I was always taught you don’t breed unproven to unproven but understand you throw rules out the window when breeding for the sales. I was against the Rachel Curlin mating for that same reason but that obviously worked out ok.
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We will see who the armchair quarterback is when someone drops a few mil on the resulting foal and it will likely never recoup those costs on the track. How successful has Mandy Pope’s other sales geared breeding decisions turned out?? Hardly anything notable.
The funny thing is when you drop that kind of money on a broodmare prospect and jump to decisions on breeding when there are so many options out there; you’ve earned your right to be critiqued. That’s why message boards exist 
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Do you know how long Mandy and her team thought about a breeding cross or how many or which stallions were considered other than the short list in the BH article?
Not sure I would have chosen Arrogate both for the reason Laurierace said, unknown to unknown (thought the Tapit cross made more sense) but also, personally don’t like that both Songbird and Arrogate are on the bigger side.
I liked the Pioneerof The Nile cross but that’s just me.
If she is breeding for the sales ring and not on-track performance, that’s her choice. Not like anyone is forcing the buyers to pay small, or large, fortunes for some of the offspring
It’s so easy to armchair quarter back - you have no skin in the game. If it was simply the best conformation/pedigree cross then the breeders would all be hitting home runs all the time. But then you have a California Chrome and a Seattle Dancer. I don’t breed or buy youngsters absolutely because there is too much risk and unknown and pure luck involved. I do have respect for those who actually breed and buy and can make a living out of it - I just don’t have that sort of risk appetite (not to mention checkbook).
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I see both sides of this–Mandy Pope paid her (millions of) dollar(s) so she can breed Songster to the farm teaser if she wants. On the other hand, there’s no subtlety in her program and since she apparently is interested in making a splash, she has set herself up for this.
The only thing I have to add is that the more someone breeds horses and hangs out at the auctions, the more it is apparent that all best laid plans are just educated guesses. I once saw a weanling by Bernardini out of a Grade 1 winner of almost a million dollars. The filly was so small and crooked that she sold for something less than $5000 as I recall–and this was when Bernardini was white hot at the sales.
Mother Nature can have a wicked sense of humor.
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Not too happy to see this plan. Arrogate was so brilliant, but then… I don’t think his less than expected performances this year can all be blamed on DelMar.
But then again, understand the stallion choice for the resale purpose. She did say she went over budget on Songbird.
But I also would have preferred to see her with a proven stallion.
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I am another armchair quarterback that is surprised as well. Very surprised.
I suppose the resulting foal will be a hit at the sales if that’s is the plan, assuming the foal is correct.
Zenyatta’s filly by Medaglia D’Oro certainly has some conformation issues. It is indeed a gamble no matter which stallion is chosen.
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OK, I no longer am in TB breeding in any shape, form or fashion. And I am with the armchair crowd.
Having said that, this breeding has the appearance of being purely commercial. And, I hate that.
I am not a fan of Arrogates. When I look at a stallion for breeding, I want something that first, and foremost, has the attitude that they are going to try, every single time. You have to love a horse like Pharoah, and Songbird, for that matter, for that kind of try. They always showed up. All of the talent in the world, without a mind to match, is nothing. And Arrogate? :no:
You want commercial with real potential? Breed her to Pharoah or Tapit. I mean, who wouldn’t want THAT baby?
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ASB Stars… Tapit is the 2019 plan for Songbird 
For me, tossup on Pharoah or his sire. I also learned if you like the offspring and want another, breed back to the parents.
Tapit certainly but Pharaoh only maybe. AP’s first foals are weanlings. If you breed Songster to him next year and she gets in foal, their foal will be born the same year that AP’s first crop races and the horse would be a yearling when his first crop is three. What if they can’t run? That’s why commercial breeders want to be in the first crop because they don’t want to risk a stallion’s failure dragging their results down when they are bringing their foals to market-- and most stallions fail.
I’m surprised at the posters who think Arrogate was not trying. He ran lights out for a year, flew around the world, and won the top three races in the world. I’m thinking they ran the well dry and did not give it enough time to refill.
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I don’t think the physical match between Songbird and Arrogate is a great idea. As a breeder, the possibility of getting his straight shoulder over her front legs would really worry me. But Mandy is all about the headlines, and this pairing will certainly produce them.
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When Arrogate was in peak form he would have run circles around American Pharaoh. No disrespect intended to American Pharaoh but the fact is he is the weakest Triple Crown winner on the list. Coddled IMO
As a breeder I am sure you know. Breeding maiden mares is, can be the trickiest part of the drill. One doesn’t know what they will throw to. No matter how “good” things look on paper. Will they throw to the stallion, them self, their dam sire or some other strong family influence in their immediate family ? May take a couple of foals to figure things out.
Mandy maybe about “headlines” but her deep pockets sure has made a lot of people happy. A redistribution of wealth, lol.
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gumtree, I totally agree. But that’s even more reason not to stack two faults on top of one another. With two horses–neither of whom has previously produced any offspring–anything is possible. Maybe the prospective foal will inherit Songbird’s lovely shoulder and Arrogate’s front legs. But I wouldn’t choose to bet her produce record on it when there are other attractive choices.
And Arrogate wasn’t coddled in his brief career?
I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but…
The Triple Crown is a whole 'nother animal in itself. It’s not just ability, it’s the precociousness and grueling schedule, especially in an era where we normally would not run our top horses on that type of schedule.
In a match race at their peaks, I have no doubt Arrogate could have beaten American Pharoah. But Arrogate on the Triple Crown trail? Color me skeptical of how he would have held up.
Of course, this is all speculative. I also think all of this is irrelevant, since being the “best” on the track means squat once your foals hit the ground. Whenever I hear people comparing ability of new sires, I think back to the year I was privileged enough to know both Tapit and Smarty Jones when they were running. Never in a million years would I have predicted their futures would end up like they did.
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