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Sooo...what do you REALLY do with your hands?

Dressage
#1

I understand this post has the makings of being very contentious. I’m hoping we can remain civil to one another, and maybe this might help others too sort out the dressage lingo/jargon we often hear/use to apply aids. I’m looking for some honest clarity here because my waters have become muddied in the quest to become a better rider.

While I can’t say I’ve ever called myself “handsy” in the sense of see-sawing on the bit, I have definitely prescribed to the approach of spongeing/vibrating a rein (like the Jane Savoie approach) after applying legs, or turning the hand like a turning a lock in a door (again, Jane Savoie among others). All in concert with using the leg on a forward moving horse.

However, recently I subscribed to Dressage Today Online (formerly known as Dressage Training online). I started watching the videos from Catherine Haddad and then Ulf Muller and I found their approach is more to do with “carrrying the hand” and “feel the mouth” - phrases they use a lot. Basically they have their riders doing a lot less with the hand beyond just holding the rein and a whole lot more with the leg/seat/core, getting the horse forward and giving him a stable “5th leg” if I can use that phrase (also used in the videos).

I decided to try this as I didn’t like what I was feeling/or seeing on video of some aspects of my rides and wow, this approach feels so much better to me as a rider, and has really opened up my horse more than I thought was possible. In one of the Haddad videos she mentions something about how if you widen your hands you ARE riding back to front…and that really struck a chord with me. Logically it makes sense but I’ve definitely done it, I’ve done it when instructed to, and I never really gave it much thought in the moment and I never thought I was riding backwards. But maybe I was, after all.

But that has left me wondering- should/does one do anything with the hand -to a squeeze, lift/lower, widen, turn the wrist…anything, anything at all? If so, what are the circumstances? When you hear clinicians/instructors/trainers say “more outside rein” what the heck does that mean then? If not something in the hand, then what? What exactly do you do when an instructor gives you that directive? Would that mean different things to different people?

Do people really do something with their hands and either keep quiet about it, or don’t even realize they are? Do you really truly do nothing with your hands other than hold the reins in closed hands? Is there a time and or place for doing something with the rein in your hand?

Just this morning I was reading an article that was a synopsis of one of the Charlotte Dujardin masterclasses where she said “When I touch him with my reins, he should stop. If I touch him with my leg, he should go” (https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/inside-charlotte-dujardins-training-principles-30759) So what does “touch with the reins” mean? If not something with the hand, then what?

I am willing to accept that “more inside/outside rein” or “touch the rein(s)” means something other than doing ___ with the hand. I realize there is more to holding a rein than just what is in the hand, there are the other parts of the arm as well. I just don’t know what is meant by these phrases. Do Haddad, Muller, Dujardin, Savoie (limited to those names in this post of course there are others) interpret and thus execute something in their bodies differently when they say “use more x rein?” Or is it all vernacular to mean to do the same thing with one’s body part(s)?

Sorry if this is incredibly basic and maybe these things aren’t in conflict with one another. I thank you all in advance for your thoughtful responses!

#2

All I am going to say is that that is a really complicated question to answer! Lol.
Goes back to the good old days when we would discuss “feel”.

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#3

I went to hear Andrew Macclean lecture recently and am still processing what he said. He bases his ideas on learning theory, how the horse learns.

He went back to basics. He said you use your hand to stop, slow and to turn, and your leg to go, speed up, and lengthen. His point was I think that even if your horse learns to stop or turn from a shift in your weight, that behavior is built on using the rein aids. He also says you should get a clear response to either hand or leg.

He also says that while you shouldn’t toss away hand or leg, you don’t ever actively use them simultaneously because that gives contradictory signals and dulls the horse to both stop and go signals.

OP when you talk about squeezing the rein, is this something you are doing every step? Is it done simultaneously with bumping with the leg? Or are you just squeezing the rein when you want the horse to stop? It sounds like a constant fiddle with hand and leg. I think Macclean would advise against that :slight_smile: as it dulls both cues.

The idea of outside rein as I understand it is in the arena, it keeps you on the rail and is your primary connection with the horse. If you are riding patterns where the horse turns off your weight, then the outside rein moderates the degree of turn. Jumpers in particular don’t want you trying to turn a horse at speed with the inside rein, so jump coaches who want you less handsy will get you to completely drop the inside rein and ride circles off weight and outside rein.

Macclean also pointed out the use of the indirect rein, which is a bit like a neck rein, which I’ve been taught to use. You use it in lateral work and to stop a horses shoulder from bulging in. So the outside rein also acts like an indirect rein at times I think.

My coach wants clear steady contact on the outside rein and then the inside rein can be used for flexions, etc.

I would interpret the quote from Charlotte to be in sync with what Macclean is saying. Clarity and separation of aids and the idea that the horse maintans a pace after you give the cue. You don’t need to spur the horse every step to maintain a trot. That dulls the horse to the aids.

(Edired to add: I went and clicked on your link and actually she said this in relation to the horse anticipating or running through cues, it was a comment on basic obedience not on specific of rider technique, she wasn’t defining touch).

There are several aspects to the quality of the hand.

One is steadiness and consistency versus inadvertently bouncing around or losing contact.

One is quietness versus fiddling and squeezing and readjusting constantly.

One is actual weight or pressure of the hand on the rein.

So if a coach says more outside rein! you’d need to see the context to see if the ride needs to be steadier, calmer, or heavier on the reins.

IMHO if you can’t keep steady quiet consistent contact independent of your seat, then it’s too soon to be trying other rein aids.

Obviously once you have steady quiet consistent contact, you can do half halts or flexions or ask the horse to stretch to the bit. So it’s not like the hand is always passive. But it shouldn’t be mindlessly fidgetting either.

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#4

I, too, recently went to Andrew McLean’s lecture, and rode in his wife’s clinic right after, and I agree and 2nd everything @Scribbler wrote, with the addition that the hand should never move backward (that was a hard one to learn, but now I’ve got the feel my horse is going better than ever and in much better self carriage, so the little bit my hand does to correct or finesse is even lighter and softer than before)

#5

Thank you SO MUCH for posting this question. Contact is a bugaboo for me, I’ve been riding for years but never really understood contact.

One thing I do know, is that the riders I admire have their horses neck in a perfect donut, solid, super-forward, shortish rein, but their hands are always “ready to offer/give” – and it amazes me. I try to emulate this, but my horse tends to just flatten and fall on his shoulder. I’m sure this is a matter of core but if anyone has advice, oh my goodness pipe up!

I have the best rides when I get the hind leg really active, as if he is suddenly surprised and jumping forward, and if I keep my leg relaxed and ride off my seat he makes himself round and voila, everything is easy. That happens maybe once in a ride, if I am very lucky…

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#6

I rode for quite a while wth a couple of trainers who are very into wiggling the fingers, vibrating, turning the wrists, squeezing and letting go of the rein, etc. and it sure did not work for me and my horse. In terms of acceptance of the bit and steadiness in the contact he got noticeably worse as time progressed. Even more noteworthy, all the trainers’ own personal horses and most of their clients’ horses are also unsteady in the connection and fussy in the mouth.

A clinic with an Olympic rider was like a lightbulb for me. She broke it down at its simplest level to “touch of the rein means stop, touch of the leg means go.” Of course that doesn’t mean the horse halts whenever you touch the reins, but they could. Your timing of the other aids determines whether you get a half, a slowing down or a momentary half half. She also had us shorten our reins up about 6 inches from where the other trainers had us fiddling with them. Hands steady in front of the saddle, one on each side of the neck. Elbows bent and all the “following” of the horse’s mouth comes from the elbow, not the hand. Basically the hands are just there to show the horse the limits if the space he has in which to work. Ride him forward from behind and he goes into that space. No fiddling, jiggling or squeezing required.

It may may be because this is also how I was taught 25+ years ago and it’s comfortable for me, or because it made sense to my horse, but it worked like a charm.

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#7

The connection comes from the rider’s back and core. That is what connects the rein to the seat. Similarly, that is how you manage the contact. Rather than managing it from the hand, which is the temptation, you have to manage it from the elbow and across the lumbar spine.

The way it was best explained to me at one point was “when you want to do something with your hand, resist him with your back instead.” By reducing the amount that the body is following and allowing, you are issuing a correction by changing the connection without getting on the mouth. Sure, especially on green horses, you will make direct movements, opening reins, etc to make it clear what you are asking for. But once the horse has the basic idea that your hand is at the other end of the rein, you can start doing this.

One of my biggest pet peeves is the lowering of the hand to try to get a lowering of the head. The biomechanics of that do not work and it removes your ability to ride from your back. Shorter reins, carried with the hands close together in front of the saddle and being actively carried by the rider are how you can create a lighter front end. Don’t fall into the trap of burying your hands to lengthen the neck. It doesn’t work. Carry your hands and let the length of neck come from the length of rein you allow.

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#8

I think the best way to think of it is that your hands come after the response from leg.
whwn a horse is in a long and low frame the weight in the hands with be different than in an extended trot.
the weight in hands and use of hands also chanted as the horse develops. When the horse doesn’t quite have the muscling and understanding of harder work they might get heavy in the hands for a period. If the rider is consistent with the contact and doesn’t resort to pulling by accident in this period than the weight becomes less. This is such a complicated topic because if a Horse is moving in a rather flat way (training or first level most often) without uphill balance and collection than the rider might end up having to soften them in the mouth to make sure they don’t lean down into the hands. As the Horse learns to sit on their haunches and worjbin self carriage with a softer rein than the work of the hands becomes much less and with much smaller adjustments.
Basically I understand it all as activity from behind first, understanding of balance (horse’s balance and rider’s awareness of it) second, and then any discussion of hands third.
The job of the hands varies through the work with the requirement that a rider maintain a contact with the mouth at all times aside from in free walk.
its easier to have a quieter hand and a consistent softer contact when the horse is in collection and self carriage.
In a longer frame with a younger or more strung out horse the hands can easily get busy trying to manage the changes in balance especially in transitions.
I’m NOT promoting ridiculously cranked in necks and absurdly short reins. Just saying that a shorter frame, shorter horse (collected), and a short direct contact will create a very different feel in the hand than a horse in kinder frame and working gaits. Watching these top riders explain contact etc is great but they’re riding in enough collection for Piaffe and pirouettes etc and most of us are working at training and first level.
i watch a lot of videos and tend to ramble

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#9

Many of these BNTs have their own training system, and horses they train understand that system. I was lucky enough to independently end up with several trainers who independently worked with each other within 2 degrees of separation. That was, in retrospect, the best thing I ever did.

Last I knew, Catherine Haddad emphasized very close contact saddles, and had her specific way of riding, for example, applying parallel aids for flying changes rather than diagonal aids. My horse had no idea what she was asking for, but had no problem with other trainers because she knew diagonal aids, not parallel aid. If she was trained by Catherine, I’m sure she would have understood.

Everyone uses different weight in the reins and different aids. There isn’t One Way.

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#10

It has long been my observation that many of the top riders have no idea how automatically their muscles react to a horse losing straightness, or to correct a slight change in bend on a circle. Their muscles react subtly at the first hint of a shift, whereas most people wake up to the fact that that they need to react a stride or two later.

It is just a subtle sense of feel developed by many, many hours in the saddle, while always being aware constantly of the need for correctness. The habit of always riding your corners, always being aware that the one rein may take a stronger leg to keep the correct bend. That circles have the exact same bend throughout their circumference.

When you get to that level, a take of the rein may mean no more than slightly closing your fingers, or gently vibrating a pinkie to institute a flexion change.

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#11

I would strongly disagree with this and I’ll tell you why.

The best explanation of contact that I’ve heard is that one needs to hold the hand. This you not pulling on the horse, but they aren’t allowed to pull on you either. Rather you maintain the same distance between the hand and the bit. So if the horse leans on the bridle you do not allow your hand to move forward or back. This steady contact prevents inconsistency in the contact and fussiness in the bridle.

The hand and leg work together to balance the horse. They control 2 halves of the horse which is determined by the horse’s center of gravity (right behind the girth groove) which is the center of the horse.

The reins determine the length of the neck (the front half) and the leg determines the length of the headquarter and how far the horse steps under themselves with their back legs (back half). If the horse is to achieve balance and self carriage the front and back must be the same length.

The horse’s natural tendency will always be to have the back half remain long, because more engagement means more work and is harder for the horse. If the front is shorter then the back then the horse will always be on the forehand and unbalanced. In order to get more engagement you need to use your leg to shorten the back half of the horse.

So I don’t understand how one would have a balanced horse in transitions if you never used hand and leg at the same time.

However as stated my definition of hand is not coming backwards. I’ve never ridden a horse who did not like this way of riding and I ride a lot of horses. I did however have a sensitive arab mare who was almost ruined by overly handsy riding. She would meltdown the second you got in the tack and didn’t stop or steer. She went on to be a great lesson horse.

Just my experience and $0.02.

#12

This is great, and yes I’ve been there too, I suspect a lot of us have.

My question, sorry if this gets SO granular and basic…the Olympic rider you worked with - “touch of the rein”…how does that physically happen with the riders body? Squeeze fingers around rein? Bring elbows back and/or follow a bit less? Tighten core? Something else? A combination?

I guess what I am trying to get at is that we can say “touch the rein” and that might execute differently in different people depending on what their interpretation of it means. You take it overly literally or depending on your level of education take it to mean something else. Just like when we say “add leg” it could be different parts of the leg. For the longest time I thought “add leg” had one meaning, and that was to put your lower calf/heel onto horse. That’s also not true, and it was a lightbulb moment when a trainer explained that to me.

#13

I am coming at this from a non-dressage perspective - and I’m curious how this will translate when I start dressage lessons. I rode with a western trainer for a little over a year, and I learned the most about my hands when I wasn’t using them. I thought she was crazy when she told me to drop my outside rein, or drop my reins completely, as I’m cantering around or riding circles, but I learned how to fix things with my legs and learned to feel how little I needed to do with my hands (and it was different for different horses). The problem I’ve always struggled with in my riding is throwing away my hands because I’m unsure of what to do, but that’s always improving.

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#14

Just wanted to say thank you all for your responses thus far, they are great. I get that what we’re trying to discuss is challenging to explain in words, just as it is to discuss feel. I also understand that clinicians/BNTs have “their system” that works for them and the horses they bring through it.

But I think there is value in doing this - because there is a lot to be interpreted in these small phrases we use and hear daily, and I think just as our teachers expect them to mean something, we also interpret them based on our own skills and knowledge.

Some BNTs/Trainers break it down to very granular action oriented steps - like Jane Savoie’s using connecting aids. She literally tells you what to do with the parts of your body (whether or not you agree if this is how it should be done). Others at first glance seem like they do, but tend to be more vague - perhaps more descriptive of the idea “touch the rein” but less action oriented broken down to the body parts used to physically execute what they mean.

And yes, then we have our dear horses, who, for some, things work, and others not so much. I get that, and I am experiencing that as well, which is part of the reason I began my quest earlier this month for some more knowledge. The tools I had in my box were not working for my horse and I knew I needed a different approach. I’m glad I did!

So thank you. Lets keep the dialog going if we can.

#15

I had the same lightbulb moment, too, myhorsefaith!

I have been taking lessons with someone who really likes Catharine Haddad, so she has been teaching me the same thing. I didn’t realize how poor my connection was until I started trying to carry my hands and keep steady pressure on the reins and riding back to front. It is such a great feeling haha

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#16

Gosh, this gets hard to put into words for me! But as I’ve been riding friends’ horses and trying to communicate what I’m feeling and doing, I really need to work on it, so I’m going to try here too!

I was lucky enough to start my dressage education on my current horse, who is very soft and light. So I learned quickly (and unlearned some prior bad habits) to keep my hands quiet and soft to encourage him to accept the contact. Now 7+ years later, that is just how I ride. I do use my reins for things, like opening my outside rein to encourage the horse to step into the outside rein better, or opening the outside rein and suppling with my ring finger to ask a horse to counterbend when he is locked at the base of his neck and popping his shoulder out (this comes at the same time as my outside leg asks him to bring his shoulders in). None of these aids lasts more than a second or two, and how much I use my reins as an aid decreases significantly as the horse learns to carry themselves properly. On my own horse, I can’t say I use the reins much at all. If he’s being feisty and wanting to buck (because why should he behave at 21?!), I’ll use my inside seat bone hard to make sure he stays in shoulder fore, and at the same time open my inside rein and supple him with my ring finger. Generally my hands/reins are in neutral. I maintain the feeling of having dropped my arms at my sides and just lifted my hands, and that is where I hold the reins.

#17

Use the hands to pat the horse!

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#18

My trainer is able to ride my mare with very little use of the inside rein. I don’t do it as well and still ride with too much inside rein, especially with one particular hand that wants to do everything regardless of which direction we’re going. The more I ride from my seat and legs, the less my hands need to do.

In fact, when I’m riding more from seat and leg, there is less mental work. If I keep my seat and leg aids clear, my horse needs less corrections and is comfortable staying where I put her. If I’m not using my seat and legs enough, my mare is like a ping pong ball, constantly looking for an evasion.

#19

One of the things I’m still trying to process from Macclean is his explanation that the horse “thinks” more with the front end. The spine has a neutral oscillator or central pattern generator for both front end and hind end. The front is much larger and dominant over the hind. The hind follows the front (and we already know that the horse naturally carries more weight on the front most of the time).

He was also addressing straightness by watching to see which diagonal pair of legs was dominant, and trying to influence the front leg that was running forward. The running forward leg would be the opposite leg from the hollow side.

So the exercises were about influencing the front leg. Both rein and leg worked on the front leg. Or on all 4 legs really. The leg doesn’t particularly signal to the hind end to move.

So leg means go, up gait, speed, lengthen stride. He recommended a different cue for up gait and speed within a gait. Also obviously degree and duration of aid should be consistently different between cues for different things.

Rein means stop, down gait, slow, shorten stride. Again, degree and duration mean different things.

He wants a horse to obey the cue and hold the movement until given another cue to change.

Anyhow, in his way of explaining things I think collecting would be add speed and ask to shorten so that the gait becomes more upright. Rather than understand that you are driving the haunches forward with your seat and capturing the energy in your hands.

I am not sure how big the practical difference is, but the explanation is very different.

Btw he said Charlotte DuJardin is an excellent intuitive rider but not always aware of everything she does. But her trainer Carl Hester sees every nuance she does and is the one to talk to!

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#20

Another thing I learned recently. In all gaits that involve forward motion, when a horse collects or extends, the distance between the footfall of the front and hind leg does not change.

What changes is length of stride and the slant of the standing leg. In extended trot the horse leans forward and the stance leg is slanted while in collected trot the stance leg is more upright. But the distance between the stance legs is the same. So the horse isn’t really getting his butt under himself or scooting his butt. He is getting more upright and if his speed is directed into a slowed gait he gets more loft and suspension and cadence.

The piaffe which is in one place does involve the hindquarters moving forward and I expect so does a Western sliding stop.

Again I am still trying to process the practical application of this to riding.

I realize it’s a long way from the original post which was just about use of the rein aids. But I think how we understand how the horse moves guides how we understand the aids to work.

Edited to add: I was reviewing my notes from Macclean and saw that he defined throughness as when the rein influenced the action of the hind legs. But he said this in passing while discussing the elements of the training scale so it wasn’t fully explained.

Everything he said at the clinic made perfect sense but as I review it I see that he is describing things rather differently than is usual, both how the horse uses his body and how the aids affect the horse. He has done so much observational and anatomical research that I find his explanation of how the horse uses its body to be convincing. But I’m afraid of misrepresenting him here or to myself even because we just got an overview.

So maybe I should have bought the book!

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