Sorry, another footing thread. Cushion with some hold?

[BroncoMo]

I’ve spent the better part of the day trying to find the right search terms, but no luck.

Scenario: impending outdoor arena. Arid environment, snow and wind. Mostly just flatting though won’t rule out some light jumping.

Is there a certain kind of sand and/or screenings and/or additive ratio that creates a cushy footing that isn’t roll-y/slide-y and still has an appropriate amount of grip/hold?

My big red beast isn’t getting any younger and is showing some moderate arthritic changes. I have long just ridden in my pastures. But I want to give him a surface that is easier on the joints. It seems like people use some combination of angular sand and screenings, or sand and fiber/rubber. I love a footing with hold and have always figured it’s better to be hard on the joints than bad for the soft tissue. But now the joints are wearing down, so I figure there must be a way to add cushion without making the footing dangerous to soft tissue, and doesn’t lose it’s grip. A ratio would be super, if that’s even possible.

I’m not looking for the standard responses regarding base, Underfoot, drainage, etc. Just looking for the top layer of footing ideas.

[NancyM]

Well, from what I’ve learned at the track years ago now, the top layer of footing needs to be made of angular sand, clay, and “an organic”. Then you add water to this, and work it with your tractor and whatever harrowing system you have. The “organic” can be a variety of different things, depending on how much money you have and what is available in your area, but it takes up and holds the water. The clay component holds things together, and compresses under pressure, returning energy to the horse’s leg with each step, without slipping. Whatever you use, components will break down over time and need to be freshened up or replaced. For an organic, if you are rich, you can get bales of leather and foam rubber trimmings from overseas. If you are not rich, most people go with sawdust or peat… Or whatever is local to your area. Do the best you can.

[BroncoMo]

Excellent thank you! I didn’t realize clay is what returned energy. Rich I certainly am not. Will be doing this primarily on my own. I’m not exactly in an area that cares about soundness and quality arenas. So when I go to pick out sand, I need to know what it is I’m looking for.

[Pico_Banana]

I recently did an outdoor, 75x200. I put in 3+ inches of “fine equestrian sand” and then added about 6000 lbs of carpet fiber. Looking at my Underfoot guide, the sand is closest to the fine silica sand they describe. The fiber is TexStride by Master Surfaces.

On the whole, it’s really fantastic. The sand by itself ended up deeper than I wanted because the sand place accidentally delivered one more truckload than I had ordered. And by itself, it was too loose and too deep in areas. The fiber was a game changer. It stabilized everything except for the areas where the sand is deeper. It’s a great balance of soft/firm/stable. My trainer has remarked that it is really nice footing. A former trainer came to check it out and decided to install the same stuff in her indoor.

A couple caveats. First, I still am working to incorporate the fibers. I used a rototiller, as suggested, and it just didn’t work that great. So they are still just in the top 1/2 inch of the sand. I have to drag regularly to keep them incorporated in that much - they like to migrate to the top, especially as it dries. But even not fully integrated, it still does the job.

Second, I am not sure how my set up would work in an arid environment. I installed late last summer and it took a lot of water at first. Once I got it to a good moisture level, the fiber seemed to help it hold the moisture, but the wind makes a noticeable difference in terms of dryness. That said, it’s usually just the very top surface, so dragging it brings to the moisture back out. Over the winter, we’ve had precipitation of some sort at least weekly, so I haven’t had to water it since . . . maybe September? I’m going to be curious to see how it does during the hot summer months.

[PaddockWood]

I just did my footing (indoor) 6 mos ago and AGONIZED over it knowing it could get done wrong and I’d be miserable. And possibly stuck with it. Just like you, I wanted what you describe: footing they are able to push off, but not slide much, and have a wee bit of bounce. Help those joints. AND also consider how you will prevent dust? I went with mag chloride but doubt you’d do that in an outdoor.

In my journey and hearing nightmare stories including a local well known trainer who used who was SUPPOSEDLY a good excavator and footing business, who in fact did such a terrible job he made them come remove the sand. And he had to show them how unstable it was - he rode his horse on it for them! Ugh.

So, my advice? You find out where the pits are around you and where the best sand is. Yes, angular. I ended up having an inch of limestone screenings on top of my perfectly leveled hard clay base. Added 1.5 inches of sand to that and was there as they were slinging it and do recommend that. You can save money and time by having a slinger. I’d originally planned a 6" limestone base on top of the clay “sub base” but money ran thin. The money spent building a barn and all the other goodies has been insane. So we gotta do what we gotta do. In an outdoor it might be more important to do a base over a sub base.

What I also remember reading is that the sub base and base are actually MORE important than the top 2 inches. Maybe you already know that.

The cost these days is in hauling the sand. Go visit some other arenas and get a sample of their sands. Then go visit the pits where you might get the sand. And get samples.

I plan to do a 1/2 inch of rubber this summer and think it will be perfect. They say how it feels for a human to run on it is how it feels to your horse. I love running on my sand.

AND, you could consider the TruTex fiber? It was the least expensive I found.

THEN, when the trucks arrive you confirm with each and every driver that they have the exact sand you wanted delivered. You be there when they deliver the sand.

Does that help you at all?

[lenapesadie]

I have angular sand over red clay around my barn / dry lot areas. My horse that has all the bony lamenesses moves markedly better on the sand.

[BroncoMo]

@Pico_Banana

I’m going to be curious to see how it does during the hot summer months

That is now a concern too. I went down a bit of a rabbit hole on how much watering is needed and yeesh. I have a deep and strong well, but the amount of water it takes to get the fiber to the optimum moisture level is substantial.

[BroncoMo]

@PaddockWood

AND, you could consider the TruTex fiber?

I took a bit of a dive down their website today and lots of good info there. I’m sort of concerned about how much water is needed to keep the moisture level at the optimum level. But then again, that’s probably applicable to any arena surface, regardless of the additives. It may just be another caveat that I need to figure out, but I would be concerned about footing blowing away or getting broken down and dead sooner than it should if I run out of time on certain weeks and don’t get it watered as well as it needs. Also winter time is a concern when it’s too cold to water but relentlessly dry. Lot’s to ponder here. But yes this all helps. So thank you

[PaddockWood]

They’ll send you a sample. I’d also think the Tru Tex would be better than just sand - to help hold moisture. It definitely would - couldn’t we say that as a fact?

Years ago I hauled to MSU for a day w Narrell Stubbs (awesome PT for horse and rider) and an evaluation by a leg vet and I’ll never forget what he said. He asked me about the footing I was working on and said most horses are ridden on sand that is too dry and moves too easily.

That horses need a footing that gives a bit and they can push off from. And of course cross training - working on different surfaces. That conversation really stuck with me about what a horse needs to feel really good on a surface. For those of us that don’t have $75k for footing (I got the quotes) we gotta work it other ways.

[BroncoMo]

That’s sort of been my mindset; I would rather the stuff doesn’t shift, and I like footing to have some stick so they can push off. But with Mr. Sticky joints, I wonder if I can do better by him and get some footing that absorbs some shock. If anything, I’ll go more on the stable side than go too shifty. Guess I just need to be ok with the several hundred (thousand?) gallons of water I’ll need to put down each week.

[BroncoMo]

@PaddockWood

For those of us that don’t have $75k for footing (I got the quotes) we gotta work it other ways.

This. Exactly. Surely I can find a way to make an effective surface that is comfy, safe, doesn’t add to arthritic changes, and not need to sell a kidney to do so. I’m not exactly riding Grand Prix horses here. Just want the big red beast to be as comfortable doing what he loves, for as long as he can.

[Pico_Banana]

@BroncoMo

That is now a concern too. I went down a bit of a rabbit hole on how much watering is needed and yeesh. I have a deep and strong well, but the amount of water it takes to get the fiber to the optimum moisture level is substantial.

I read those articles, too, about the amount of water needed for fiber arenas and, from my experience, I think they are a bit overstated.

@PaddockWood

AND, you could consider the TruTex fiber?

I found the Master Surfaces fiber to be less expensive than the TruTex, fyi. I got samples from both companies and the TexStride is very similar to one of the TruTex fibers (not the GGT-like one). Also, Master Surfaces sent me not just a sample of the fiber, but also a sample from an actual ring that has had the fiber for a while, which was super helpful to see how it performs in real life.

@BroncoMo

I would be concerned about footing blowing away

My mare got injured this fall and my maintenance of the ring over the winter was pretty negligible. As I’d mentioned, I still don’t have the fiber worked in very well and it migrates to the top as it dries out. (That seems to defy the laws of science, but that’s what it looks like.) I was worried that it would blow away but that hasn’t happened at all.

[NaturallyHappy]

I have regular concrete/mason sand in my outdoor. It works very well…it doesn’t have slip to it. I think the weathering that happens via Mother Nature is what makes it work so well. That exact same sand failed miserably in my indoor (with a real base) … the horses did slip on it.
One arena builder told me most of the fiber footings actually shed water as opposed to holding it. I don’t know how true that is, but it was certainly true of the fiber I had. It was in my indoor and I couldn’t keep enough water on it, even with a commercial water truck coming in. I know many people have success w it…I’m just sharing what I learned in case it’s helpful to someone.

[BroncoMo]

What is it about the outside that helped this sand succeed? Also what does your outdoor have for a base, since you say your indoor has a “real” base?

[NaturallyHappy]

Both arenas have the same base…screenings soaked and rolled w one of those giant vibrating roller machines. So it’s hard and concrete/mason sand (some people say they are the same thing; others say they are different.) would roll on it. Outside, the sand is exposed to weather. My layperson opinion is that weather roughs it up so it locks together better…but not too much. I think PaddockWood mentioned to go look at the sand as opposed to ordering over the phone. I agree. My indoor footing I now have is very nice. It’s 2” of screenings with 1” of a Department of Transportation product mixed in. My arena builder drove to several quarries to find it.