Sort of but not another Full collar vs. Breastcollar thread... :)

[butlerfamilyzoo]

OK, i know all the pros and cons of full collars vs breastcollar…

My question for those that also know the differences… If you had the money to go with a full collar, would you?

This is the only horse that would use this harness, so i dont have to worry about adjusting anything, it’s hers and hers alone. I KNOW they are better, but i know they can have fit issues if she loses weight/gains, etc… And i dont know that i can afford 2 collars… She isnt one to fluctuate on weight at all, but you never know…

I’ve never put one on and i know some people complain it can be hard to get it over their eyes. She’s got a wide head, this might make it harder… I dont know.

I like the look of a full collar. I’ve got a bennington buccaneer cart, the shafts do curve down at the ends, i think it would look nice on her with my cart. I cant say i want to spend the extra money, and since i KNOW she works fine in a breastcollar, and i know how to adjust and fit one of those to her, i guess i’m leery to take the plunge for a full collar.

I also want a beta/bi harness for her and having some issues finding that in hames style, but havent wrote any of the companies to see if they’ll make it yet either. Iowa Valley just came out with a collar measuring device that takes some of the scary part out of measuring for me, so i’m hoping that wouldnt be an issue if i bought that…

I know most the collars are patent leather, so i’m assuming care for them wouldnt be any different than my bio harness? Do people use collar pads for every day work, or are they necessary if the collar fits correctly? Wondering if adding a pad makes the collar fit more snug, thus causing it to not fit properly?

I might still chicken out and buy her a new super V breast collar, i do like those… But i do drive hills and with a move coming up to who knows where next year, i have no idea how terrain will be where we move to and i might be wishing i had gotten that full collar to help her along. I REALLY want this to be the last harness i ever buy for her. Is that so hard to do?? :lol:

[Drive_NJ]

OK several points in you post need some comment

1- Collars may be patent leather but usually (not always) that is just the outside face of the collar - its still regular leather on the face that is to the horse - So care of the collar is still as if it were all leather

2- You should be able to get a betathane harness maker to give you a full harnes MINUS the breast collar
Then you get your collar and hames and have the short tugs of the hames made with betathane (pretty sure that would be possible)

3- As I understand it, the deep Super V breast collars are not really designed for a straight pull cart like a roadcart. They function best with the pull dropping downward to the swingle tree like for marathon 4-wheel vehicles or for 2-wheel carts with axle draft
If you are pulling straight back to a higher set swingle tree then the trace twists on the collar and you dont get the full effect of the collar design

4- if you are buying a buggy collar and not a fancy show collar - the price isnt that steep. And if your pony’s face is that wide you can consider a collar that opens at the top for ease in getting it on

Best of luck with your decision

[butlerfamilyzoo]

Thanks Drive NJ

I think your #3 point depends on how the collar is made. If it’s got buckle in or fixed traces, then i think you are correct, could depend on the angle for the draft to be correct. The Country Carriages Super V has a ring which allows the trace to be angled for whatever angle of draft you may have. I think Camptown is doing this now too. I do have a 2 wheel road cart type of cart with the Bennington.

My mini drives with a super V in his easy entry cart with a rather high draft, he does great with it, it has regular buckle in traces with a straight line of draft to them. I’ve never seen them twist to the breast collar when pulling, when out of draft, they twist a little when they droop.

Country carriages recommends the open top buggy collar for us. I have never seen these. Are they sleek enough for a pleasure show or two a year? Is this going to be too chunky on a 13.3h cob whose not real chunky built? I can picture a nice refined Kay/princess type show collar on her, but not a bigger buggy collar.

I would spend the extra money if it were the end of my harness buying adventures!!! I just wish i could take her to a harness maker and have them measure her and try them all on so i can see what they look like and what works best for us. It’s so scary to spend so much and not really know until it gets here if it fits! I’m so worried i’m going to measure wrong and i know fit is really important on these things.

[goodhors]

Buggy collars are usually a bit smaller in diameter than show collars. You still get a lot of “face” on the inside of collar against the horse shoulders. Just not as much needed because buggies are not as heavily built (old days, non-oak construction) as the bigger carriages are.

Open top collars work for those odd heads, but then you have to fasten hames on the collar, on the horse. We had difficulty with that on our old Pair only 14.2H, so went with closed collars and left the hames on for the 16-17H horses! Just hard to get leverage to pull the hame strap tight enough when on the horse.

To be considered, perhaps modified on your cart, is singletree location. You ALWAYS want line of draught (pronounced draft) to be rising from singletree to horse shoulder. Could be an inch or several inches, but for most effective use of your “horsepower”, that line of the trace should be angled upward to the horse.

Too often I see traces dropping from a too-high singletree to the horse shoulders, and this is for both breastcollar harness or a full neck collar. A level trace “works” but is not your best choice, could be the deal-breaker difference in a class, when Judge has to get picky on who is “best”.

With a light cart like a Bennington, I don’t think an animal really NEEDS a full collar unless you have rough ground, doing steep hills on a regular basis. Some antique carts (2-wheels) ARE heavy, especially the UK ones for some reason. Construction is weighty, massive wheels. We have had several, and they really needed the full collar even on paved roads, especially the 4 passenger one with the extra passenger weight. Modern carts, older American carts, seem to be MUCH lighter in weight, using different construction techniques and woods. Newer wooden carts can vary a lot, with the varnished oak carts being quite heavy. Painted carts of mixed woods, seem to be lighter, builders don’t have to worry about matching grains of the wood, so ash, hickory, other light woods get used. Metal carts have weight, but are not HEAVY, so the breastcollar can work fine if ground is not steep or heavy pulling.

Cobs are harnessed with full neck collars traditionally, but then they were working pulling heavier loads, in UK built heavy carts. It all went together.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

My bennington has some massive wheels on it, i’ve never seen cart wheels so thick and heavy duty. According to Benningtons website, their new ones weight 308lbs, this is an older one with the torsion springs and i think my wheels look heavier than their new ones, so i’m willing to bet its a little heavier. Its this one:
http://www.benningtoncarriages.co.uk/images/ww/buggy%202nd%20hand%20l.jpg

I cant say i like it with that russet harness, or that chunky of a collar.

I cant change the singletree on my mini’s cart, i wish i could. The bennington is lower.

We have a move coming up next year and i dont know where to yet. So for all i know at this point, i could be driving hilly terrain or it could be flat as a pancake! I do have some hills here, a lot over at Hitchcock Woods if i drive her there, but for the most part it’s fairly easy going aside from the deep sand parts, and unfortunately the Bennington has rounded rubber, so it does dig in more than i wish it would, but they are wider rims than i’m used to seeing on the wood wheel road cart types.

I’m really chickening out, more so on the measuring part of it. I just dont want to get it wrong. I wish i knew people that used them, so i could see them and get a feel if it’s something i can get over her head or need an open top one, etc… The breastcollars are just sounding easier and easier the more i dwell on it!

[Drive_NJ]

I could not leave the hames on my Hackney’s collar cuz I had to knee it a bit to get it wide enough to go over his wide eyes

I did OK tightening the hamestrap on his collar each time

We were pulling an Irish Tub cart so LOTS of weight there - wheels were 54 inches with 2 inch wide felloes and oval oak spokes

You should do fine with the buggy collar and the bennington - if you like the look
also with a breast collar which is what you see for most American with that vehicle

does no one in your area have a collar you can borrow to try on for size???

check the local clubs to see

[butlerfamilyzoo]

From what i’ve seen at the aiken driving club functions thus far, i’ve only seen one guy using a collar, and though he might be helpful if given the chance, he chewed me out for having my kid in a stroller around horses… I’m afraid if i saw him again, i would shoot him, let alone ask to borrow collars. He was also driving warmbloods, not sure he would have large pony sizes laying around, but you never know.

It looked like most in the club use the Camptown harness with many having her freedom collar, which i’m sure is easy since she’s in Aiken…

The more i look at the photo i found of the bennington with the draft in a collar, the more i hate the look and think i just want to stick with a shaped breastcollar. It’s hard to picture my pony with a black harness and that cart though after staring at a painted one with a russet harness…

I looked at the Euro collars, but they are kinda fuggly for a pleasure cart, sporty for a marathon carriage… But not really on the pretty side.

I’m about 70% against a collar at this point. I started out my day researching and happily ready to plunge right in, but it’s more the hassle than the money. I kinda feel like i need a few people holding my hand to help me along, not feeling it out for myself.

I dont know how hard it would be to get the hames on, and i’m sure if i got a closed top collar i probably have to bend it and work it over her head every time, so i wouldnt have the option of leaving the hames on.

Really thinking i’m going to end up with the breastcollar since i’m comfortable with it. I’m going to measure her tonight, stare at her a while, picture it in my head, and then decide…

here’s some pics of her i took yesterday:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150183364242659.310454.593242658&l=54ffc77873
the chestnut. I can picture the collar on her, a nice refined show collar, but maybe she would look nicer in the breastcollar…

[Quelah]

FWIW, I take the hames on and off my work and show harness everytime I use it. I’m 5’5", my horse is 18.1-there’s simply no way I could get the collar on and off w/ the weight of the hames on it. My horse also has “wide eyes”, so I need to do it for that reason. It’s really not a big deal

[mayfair]

We use freedom collars (v collar) with a straight line of draft as well and the horses seem comfortable. They have buckle in traces and haven’t had them twist.