Sound for only ~1 week after shoeing

[Mareish]

I’ve started a few different topics related to feet issues and questions now — apologies for all the threads, but I’m basically desperate for insight on a frustrating situation that my trainer, vet, and farrier haven’t encountered before!

The short story is that my mare blocks sound to the RF DP block. She has no findings on rads or MRI. Four months off (over half on stall rest) helped but did not resolve the issue. She was sound when she got back to work in the summer and early fall, when weather was drier. She is now consistently sound for +/- one week after she gets new shoes — currently, eggbars with full pads and impression material underneath — and then goes off again. If she gets shod the next day after going off, she’s back to sound. Subtle changes in the type of pad (wedge, frog support, etc) do not make a difference.

My theory has been that it has to do with mud getting under the pads from turnout. My farrier has not been willing to use anything other than impression material or pour in material, which my mare previously liked even less, under the pads. I recently asked on another thread about oakum and am still interested in trying that. But I’ll be bringing in a new farrier (a SECOND new farrier, actually) in the next few days, so ANY thoughts/suggestions/ideas that I can have in mind for that appointment would be much appreciated!

[IPEsq]

What happens if you remove pads?

[Mareish]

@IPEsq

What happens if you remove pads?

Good question! I should have addressed that. We put her in rim pads about a month ago, suspecting that the packing material and/or mud was causing her to be off. She went beautifully in them for a few days but then seemed to get sore. It was also particularly wet and muddy at that time mixed with occasional frozen ground. She had been in full pads for at least six months before then — mostly successfully until the weather turned wetter. I used magic cushion and durasole (at different times) after she showed signs of soreness for about three weeks. She continued to appear sore. My then-farrier thought that she preferred full pads based on that, and we’ve had her going well again in different types of full pads for one week at a time after shoeing three times since then.

[OneTwoMany]

Had a horse once that was a real head scratcher with on again and off again lameness for months and months. The lameness wasn’t as correlated to the shoeing cycle as yours. We did all the diagnostics, nerve blocks, radiographs, ultrasound without getting any answers. First MRI showed nothing. Decided to do a second MRI and this time they went higher up the leg and found a bone bruise. Sometimes nerve blocks influence areas higher up the leg than might be expected. Might be something to discuss with the vet.

[Mareish]

@OneTwoMany

Had a horse once that was a real head scratcher with on again and off again lameness for months and months. The lameness wasn’t as correlated to the shoeing cycle as yours. We did all the diagnostics, nerve blocks, radiographs, ultrasound without getting any answers. First MRI showed nothing. Decided to do a second MRI and this time they went higher up the leg and found a bone bruise. Sometimes nerve blocks influence areas higher up the leg than might be expected. Might be something to discuss with the vet.

Thank you!! My vet has raised the possibility of a higher up (and non-standing) MRI, and it’s definitely on our radar if shoe changes no longer seem to help. I’m trying to avoid it for cost reasons right now, but we may get there at the rate we’re going,

[OneTwoMany]

@Mareish

Thank you!! My vet has raised the possibility of a higher up (and non-standing) MRI, and it’s definitely on our radar if shoe changes no longer seem to help. I’m trying to avoid it for cost reasons right now, but we may get there at the rate we’re going

I completely understand about the cost side of the equation. On the other hand, some injuries such a bone bruise that go unchecked can result in irreversible and career ending damage.

If you haven’t already, it might be wise to get the best lameness specialist in your area involved in the case. Someone who sees similar cases day in and day out and work closely with top farriers regularly, are worth the extra $$ they charge.

We have a great team of local vets that I adore, but when it comes to lameness, I go straight to the specialist. IMO, it is less expensive in the long run and the outcomes are better.

Best of luck in finding some answers!

[S1969]

Why is she in eggbars? Has she always been in them?

At this point I’d be thinking about pulling the shoes entirely for a period of time to see what happens/changes. But then again, I don’t know the reason for the shoes so that may be a bad idea.

[Palm_Beach]

@Mareish

Good question! I should have addressed that. We put her in rim pads about a month ago, suspecting that the packing material and/or mud was causing her to be off. She went beautifully in them for a few days but then seemed to get sore. It was also particularly wet and muddy at that time mixed with occasional frozen ground. She had been in full pads for at least six months before then — mostly successfully until the weather turned wetter. I used magic cushion and durasole (at different times) after she showed signs of soreness for about three weeks. She continued to appear sore. My then-farrier thought that she preferred full pads based on that, and we’ve had her going well again in different types of full pads for one week at a time after shoeing three times since then.

Obviously late to the party, but is she being worked?

[IPEsq]

Which pour in did you use? Have you tried the soft pour in material under a full pad rather than the dental impression material?

I assume she isn’t being trimmed to any real noticeable degree at one week intervals so it seems like it has something to do with the pads being reset.

Have you only done PD blocks or have you tried more specific foot blocks? For example coffin joint specific block. Never any blocks higher up?

[Mareish]

@Palm Beach

Obviously late to the party, but is she being worked?

She was back to full work over the summer and early fall and stayed sound. She’s a hunter, and this included jumping at height. Once weather got wet again, we’ve had trouble again… She’s been in light work – 20-30 minutes WTC – when sound, which is generally right after shoeing. The pattern with work doesn’t seem to influence soundness but it’s also hard to rule that out as a factor. For example, she got shod on Monday, 1/6, was sound for light rides on Tuesday, Wednesday, Saturday, and Sunday. Got this Monday off (jogged sound that morning before turnout) and was lame yesterday evening. But she was sound to jog and on the lunge line this morning – got no meds and made no other changes in the meantime.

Having trouble quoting multiple posts, but @S1969 - she has been in eggbars since we brought her back to work over the summer after she started to have issues with sore feet last winter. She had been in regular aluminum shoes with no pads prior to these issues. My farrier thought that they would best support her feet given the soreness pattern we were seeing. They seemed to work over the summer, and she’s still sound immediately after shoeing such that I’m not sure eggbars are the problem per se, but I’m certainly open to going back to the drawing board with those and will be asking the new farrier about that.

@IPEsq - we haven’t done more specific foot blocks. We have done the PD block probably 5 times over the last year. She has always blocked sound to it. We tried coffin joint injections about two months ago even though they were not clearly indicated by the MRI, and we saw no difference. Also correct that she’s not being trimmed in any real way when she’s getting shoes reset so quickly. My farrier used the harder pour in material from Equipak without a flat pad on top. She hated it and we cut it out within days. I have asked him about softer pour in material and he has responded that it would be no different from the impression material that he’s been using more recently. This was one of the red flags that led me to contact another farrier.

The new farrier will be doing her next Monday, 1/20, so please keep the ideas and thoughts and questions coming in the meantime. Thank you all!

Edited to add a few more notes in case they’re helpful: it’s consistently been her RF but primarily presents as lame (low grade, can feel it more than you can see it) when traveling to the left. She is nearly always sound traveling to the right and on straightaways. We have been tentatively treating it as navicular syndrome based on the presentation but notably there are no signs of navicular issues on either rads or MRI. My vet and I are also discussing Osphos in addition to shoeing changes by the new farrier.

[PossumHorse]

Sounds eerily familiar. My thin soled, low pain tolerance horse got pads added this summer at the vets recommendation. Starting August, he would be sound for 3 days after being reshod. The problem appeared to be a hoof wall abscess. It got hot a few times. A very specific spot on the cornet band maybe two fingers wide. If I kept him walking; 20 minutes of walk per day, the lameness was minimal. We pulled shoes and I soaked the heck out of it. He’d appear sound, but be sore again 3 days after the reset. Farriers were not able to find any trace of the abscess.

He’s barefoot, in boots now for other reasons. I’m hoping the abscess has fully cleared itself ( it blew up to whole foot being hot when he initially went barefoot).

[Sherry99]

Thrush? I’ve known a couple of horses that had weird intermittent lameness issues, both had thrush that was not readily apparent. The first horse was seen by multiple farriers and a couple of vets, but he had none of the usually symptoms as it was only between his heel bulbs, and really far up. There was no smell and the frog was rock hard we finally had some really wet weather that cause some frog involvement that let me catch it. He even had some blocks at one point, but what seemed to happen, was it was only a little uncomfortable, so he would compensate and that would irritate something else. The lameness came from the “something else” that was caused by compensating. The second one had full pads put on for the first time, was fine for a bit, then lame. Really low grade thrush, but a sensitive mare. Pulled the pads, treated it. Pads went back on and within a few days, lame again. It was again hiding up between the heel bulbs. It can be really persistent and the correlation with the wet weather would have me checking/treating for that.

[IPEsq]

My vet hates the dental impression material because he says it hardens under the pad over time. Farriers might say differently. But given where you’re at, it might be worth a try to use the softer Equipak product under the pad. At the least it would keep mud out, but it will be softer than the regular material that you use without a separate pad.

Lame primarily with the foot on the outside of the circle suggests soft tissue involvement to me. Have you tried starting with doing a medial PD only (not the whole foot at once)?

Foot things are so frustrating.

[Mareish]

@Sherry99

Thrush?

Last winter, when she was still in regular aluminum shoes with no pads but started to have soreness issues, I suspected deep sulcus thrush and treated aggressively with ToMorrow. Two farriers and two vets have since said that her feet look healthy and there are no signs of thrush. I can’t really access her frogs now between the eggbars and pads, so I have wondered about that. I’ll ask the new farrier when he comes on Monday.

@PossumHorse - that’s interesting! And makes me feel a bit better that my horse isn’t the only one with frustrating lameness. We’ve never had heat or a pulse, so abscess seems unlikely in her case.

@IPEsq - the lameness specialist at the clinic started with a medial PD block and she blocked sound. We then did the standing MRI with no findings. He recommended a few months of stall rest, which we did but it hasn’t resolved the issue. I’ve been in touch with him recently, and his suggestion has been to explore shoeing changes and re-MRI higher up if that is not successful. Interesting point about impression material hardening over time – that could certainly explain some things given that we know she’s sensitive to sole pressure!

[Sherry99]

ToMorrow (or ToDay, can’t remember which) worked on the first guy. The mare did cleantrax, it’s a soak/fuming thing that involves a boot, and big plastic bag. But it really got into all of the cracks and crevices. Also no more full pads for her!

[IndysMom]

Sounds like she’s similar to my boy. He’s in full pads and has been for years. However, which I did not like when we started it, he has nothing under the pads. Nothing, nada, no fill. Fill results in a sore footed horse-does it every time. He does have three holes drilled in the pad for drainage.

[Sfbayequine]

“My farrier used the harder pour in material from Equipak without a flat pad on top. She hated it and we cut it out within days. I have asked him about softer pour in material and he has responded that it would be no different from the impression material that he’s been using more recently. This was one of the red flags that led me to contact another farrier.”

^^^ that was my horse forever with the pads and impression material and shoes in general. She could never tolerate DIM under leather pads or the pour in. We tried every combo imaginable and it was always a no go. I swear we used every softness and product on the market. What worked for a long while was a leather pad with like a pine tar product. Not magic cushion, but something else. The problem was, that would ball up too. She did best with a plain leather pad and nothing under it.

If you have done an MRI, I’m sure you have radiographs. I’m would suspect the Palmer angle is where it should be given you are working with your vet, but if negative or too close to negative for your horses comfort, it could be part of all this.

I had the on and off unsound horse. Then pads, wedges, and still the intermittent lameness. I got a new vet and farrier who put her in Epona composites with a 4 week trim. We were fixing a negative Palmer angle coming off a suspensory tear and overall front end lameness that danced around before the suspensory. My farrier/trimmer used the glue for the composites to wedge the shoe, but interestingly, she never had any soreness with the dental impression material used in this package. This was the first time she could tolerate it. The composites were not just slapped on. It was a whole thing in the beginning with casting, radiographs, measurements… it was pretty intense.

Over the years she had done better in aluminum, but never responded well to steel. People told me I was nuts that the steel was a problem, and I may be ;-), but the trim for metal shoes on this particular horse leaves just enough toe that makes this horse uncomfortable and she slides out easily into a negative Palmer. It’s her confirmation and it’s sneaky. With traditional wedges, the horse deteriorated further. It wasn’t even the farriers as I had some of the best working on her. It’s just her and a very specific trim and set up for her to make her happy.

she now has a lovely foot, the heel opened, she grew crazy sole, the frogs are nice and deep, the angles are perfect, she’s not lame, and never trips.

it’s been a year and she’s sound. She came around at about the 4th month. She is still in the eponas up front and barefoot in the back. I’ll probably never put her back in metal. I’ll use whatever makes the horse comfortable. My gelding can be shod or barefoot. I’m not a fanatic. They just need to be comfy.

good luck. Chasing this stuff is maddening.

[Peggy]

I had one that could not tolerate sole pressure. He was happiest in frog support pads.

[Palm_Beach]

@Mareish

She was back to full work over the summer and early fall and stayed sound. She’s a hunter, and this included jumping at height. Once weather got wet again, we’ve had trouble again… She’s been in light work – 20-30 minutes WTC – when sound, which is generally right after shoeing. The pattern with work doesn’t seem to influence soundness but it’s also hard to rule that out as a factor. For example, she got shod on Monday, 1/6, was sound for light rides on Tuesday, Wednesday, Saturday, and Sunday. Got this Monday off (jogged sound that morning before turnout) and was lame yesterday evening. But she was sound to jog and on the lunge line this morning – got no meds and made no other changes in the meantime.

Having trouble quoting multiple posts, but @S1969 - she has been in eggbars since we brought her back to work over the summer after she started to have issues with sore feet last winter. She had been in regular aluminum shoes with no pads prior to these issues. My farrier thought that they would best support her feet given the soreness pattern we were seeing. They seemed to work over the summer, and she’s still sound immediately after shoeing such that I’m not sure eggbars are the problem per se, but I’m certainly open to going back to the drawing board with those and will be asking the new farrier about that.

@IPEsq - we haven’t done more specific foot blocks. We have done the PD block probably 5 times over the last year. She has always blocked sound to it. We tried coffin joint injections about two months ago even though they were not clearly indicated by the MRI, and we saw no difference. Also correct that she’s not being trimmed in any real way when she’s getting shoes reset so quickly. My farrier used the harder pour in material from Equipak without a flat pad on top. She hated it and we cut it out within days. I have asked him about softer pour in material and he has responded that it would be no different from the impression material that he’s been using more recently. This was one of the red flags that led me to contact another farrier.

The new farrier will be doing her next Monday, 1/20, so please keep the ideas and thoughts and questions coming in the meantime. Thank you all!

Edited to add a few more notes in case they’re helpful: it’s consistently been her RF but primarily presents as lame (low grade, can feel it more than you can see it) when traveling to the left. She is nearly always sound traveling to the right and on straightaways. We have been tentatively treating it as navicular syndrome based on the presentation but notably there are no signs of navicular issues on either rads or MRI. My vet and I are also discussing Osphos in addition to shoeing changes by the new farrier.

So the pattern is you shoe, she is better, you ride, she gets worse. Maybe it’s the riding not the shoeing, and she needs more time off?

[ElementFarm]

if your hypothesis is that turnout mud is getting under/inside the pad, I’d try to put her back in rim pads, and see what happens.
Or you can limit turnout for a few weeks to test your theory. If she can get lightly lunged or handwalked inside instead, or even turned out only in the indoor overnight/when not in use for a few weeks, and she stays sound more than a week+ after shoes are reset, that’s a good indicator she’s reacting to material getting up in there.

A less ideal, but maybe more acceptable (from your barn’s perspective) would be to somehow wrap (vetwrap, duct tape) the whole hoof up to the pastern, covering the gap between the pad and hoof at the back) Every Time she’s turned out. if it stays on, it would prevent material from getting in there. it depends what kind of mud your barn has, but maybe a hoofboot over the whole hoof (both fronts so she’s even) would work.

I have a mare who was always prone to being footsore. She’s retired to broodmare status now but I did find that she objected to some of the fillers more than others, so it’s definitely worth playing around with options. She also was much happier if she got keratex painted on the sole a few times a week.