Sound on baseline, lame on flexions

[Arzny]

Looking for words of wisdom from more experienced people here before I speak with my vet tomorrow.

I have a horse leased out currently. The lessor’s trainer called and said the horse was off and they were having a lameness done. Their vet sent me the report, and it says the horse is sound at baseline but was 3/5 lame on both hind limbs after cross over flexion. Lessor says nothing happened and horse was just lame one morning & they are going to return horse to me. Report was sent Saturday so I have been giving myself an ulcer over this. Has anyone had something similar to this? What was the ultimate diagnosis?

I have been unable to get lessors to send a video of the horse, but am happy to PM the entire vet report to anyone who might have further information.

[Bogey2]

So horse is sound without flexions? What type of work does the horse do? How old is he?

I once leased a horse out and he did fine the first year and a half because he was ridden correctly. Then she switched trainers and he was basically ridden upside down so next thing you know they are injecting the hell out of everything so I took him back.

[Arzny]

It’s a 12 year old jumper. Doing the 1m packer job. Has been with this rider and trainer all summer, showing and jumping just fine. On Tuesday she called and said horse has been off for two weeks. Thursday she said horse was “much better”. Lameness was Friday. Historically hocks have been injected and are UTD. Stifles have been injected in the past and are not UTD.

According to the vet report it was sound until it was flexed.

I’m basically trying to decide if I should bring the horse home or send it to my trainers. It is certainly not staying with the lessor. Two weeks of not mentioning lameness is far beyond acceptable.

[Bogey2]

Well then he’s not lame…why did they say he was lame for two weeks and vet said he is not. Flexions are just so hard to read because some vets overdo the hold and of course a 12 yr. old would not run off sound from them. Not sure if you have a contract but maybe get a second opinion? Have your own vet look at report and maybe take X-rays?

[Arzny]

My vet is going to review report tomorrow and make a game plan. I’m just spiraling from worry and wanted some other thoughts. I’ve literally never dealt with a lameness that wasn’t from obvious injury (slab fracture etc).

Their lease has already been terminated- just waiting for shipper.

[Bogey2]

It is hard to deal with this type of news when your horse is not in the area. Try not to worry too much it sounds like it is something that can be managed!

[IPEsq]

What is cross over flexion? I’ve never heard of that. Makes it difficult to understand the body part that was reactive.

[SBrentnall]

@IPEsq

What is cross over flexion? I’ve never heard of that. Makes it difficult to understand the body part that was reactive.

That’s when you flex the hind limb under the belly towards the other limb. It’s good at showing stifle and SI issues.

[IPEsq]

Seems like if it was the stifle, and 3/5 on both hinds, then I would think you would get a positive on a full limb flexion or stifle extension also. So, I wonder if lower back/SI injury? Horse had a fall maybe?

[Arzny]

Lessor claims nothing happened and horse just appeared this way.

Vet report says cross over flexions were the only ones with positive findings & horse did not palpate sore over the thoracic spine, lumbar spine or sacrum.

[IPEsq]

I guess the hip joint may also be stressed in that movement. But to be lame on one hip joint seems pretty rare, much less two. 3/5 is pretty marked for a flexion test on a baseline sound horse. All seems pretty strange! I hope the horse is ok now and your vet gives him a good look over and concurs.

[Demerara_Stables]

You say the stifles haven’t been maintained, and if the cross over flexion was positive, stifles would be my first place to look. Out of curiosity, has the horse’s turnout situation or time spent working on circles (longeing) changed?

[trubandloki]

I am glad your vet is looking into this.

My thought is that the horse was lame because of something simple like an abscess or a stone bruise and was sound by the time they bothered to call the vet, and cross over flexions are hard and heck, I would hurt if someone did that to my body too.

[Arzny]

I honestly don’t feel I’d get an honest answer from the lessors, so haven’t bothered asking.

[beowulf]

Trainer thought he was off, vet said he was sound - on the same timeline rougly? Am I understanding that right?

It’s anyone’s guess, flexions can show all sorts of things. Sometimes it is like reading tea leaves. Could be suspensory soreness, could be stifle. I don’t have much experience with cross body flexions either, I think that would be more likely than regular flexions to give a sore reading. That’s a hard, unnatural angle for a horse.

Could be something as “innocuous” as lyme. I called my vet out because my horse was just not really himself. Hard to explain, but under saddle he felt janky even though eye witness said he was sound. My vet flexed him and he was downright reactive over hock flexions. I was resigning myself to hock injections when my vet had the brilliant idea to pull a lyme titer first. Sure enough, he came back positive. My vet wanted to treat him for lyme first, and revisit the hocks later. On check up, he didn’t flex positive at all. Fingers crossed for a similar outcome for you.

Also an aside, sometimes leases don’t work out, and it is for the best. You never know what they are doing, even when you trust them - could be he is being ridden hard and put up wet. Could be they are cantering him in 15m circles for 45m before riding. Could be their farrier sucks. I’ve had more worse luck than good with leasing out horses, invariably they have always come back less sound than they left – even from good connections.

[punchy]

It’s possible that the positive flexion had nothing to do with whatever lameness the trainer saw, which sounds like it resolved by the time the vet saw it. Has the horse had cross-over flexion tests before? If not, could be that it would have been 3/5 lame on flexion a month ago, six months ago, a year ago. So unless the horse had regular ok cross-over flexion tests and is now suddenly 3/5 lame, I’d not automatics link the flexion tests with the now-resolved lameness.

[FjordBCRF]

@punchy

It’s possible that the positive flexion had nothing to do with whatever lameness the trainer saw, which sounds like it resolved by the time the vet saw it. Has the horse had cross-over flexion tests before? If not, could be that it would have been 3/5 lame on flexion a month ago, six months ago, a year ago. So unless the horse had regular ok cross-over flexion tests and is now suddenly 3/5 lame, I’d not automatics link the flexion tests with the now-resolved lameness.

This is a really good point.

It’s also entirely possible the horse did something in the stall or turnout that is the cause of the lameness. For as many times as it IS the farrier or the horse is being worked too hard, there are many times the horse found trouble on its own. Unless someone witnesses it, it will remain a mystery.

Horses seem to have a knack for finding trouble when no eyes are watching.

[Arzny]

Vet read the report and is unconcerned. Horse is going to go straight to the trainers to find another lease.