[QUOTE=M.K.Smith;7239239]
What is the ideal age to spay or neuter a large breed puppy (or dog in general) to prevent the issues?[/QUOTE]
My vet recommends between 18 to 24 months of age.
[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;7239153]
Pot meet kettle. IME, most reputable breeders are breeding to improve the breed. So no, they don’t really like to place puppies in homes where the line will end. Unless, of course, it’s a pup they don’t believe is breeding quality.
I think wendy makes some valid points. I would have concerns about altering a puppy that young. Particularly a large breed one. What if the OP plans to do agility or other dog sport? IMO, she runs the risk of predisposing the dog to injury.[/QUOTE]
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The reputable breeders will have clauses in their contracts, like your dog must have XY and Z accomplishments before breeding; breeder will remain co-owner to ensure dog is only bred for betterment of breed etc. However this only winds up applying to breeders who want to breed registered pups, not to those who may not be 100% responsible for their dogs. Hence my strong words against Wendy’s suggestion. While the OP may well be one of those responsible owners who are so few and far between in the USA but Wendy didn’t qualify her answer.
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if you’ll notice, I did point out in my response that I would not consider a sporting prospect that had been altered that young.
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also, to be 100% fair, anything that Wendy says that is argumentative I used to give her the benefit of the doubt on I no longer do after her callous responses on that divorce thread.
This is definitely a controversial topic at the moment and I think in the future there will be some changes to the current thoughts on spay and neutering everything.
As for shelters, its only responsible for them to not let them go till they are spayed and neutered. They used to give out vouchers for such, but people either never came back or when they came back the animal was already pregnant.
The numbers killed in the shelters every year has reduced since shelters changed their policy. That being said there is still 5 million that die each year which is way too many.
We literally were just talking about the subject in my small animal surgery class today since we were learning about spays etc… Its funny since our professor has to change the things previously taught and linked us to a few studies on the matter. So have no fear future vets are being educated on this topic. I think it will be interesting to see which direction the US heads in the coming years.
The juvenile vulva is the condition that you are talking about that leads to repeated UTI. If you let them go through even one estrus cycle, it helps the vulva to mature and prevent this problem. There are surgeries to fix the issue. The juvenile vulva seems to be even more of an issue once the dog becomes overweight which spaying them predisposes them to.
I don’t have enough experience with pediatric spays to know how I feel. All my dogs have been older when neutered/spayed, as they were racing greyhounds, or intact strays. I am interested to read the new literature coming out and the direction that it will go in the states.
Unfortunately, it seems to not have a puppy altered so young you would have to buy from a breeder which with so many animals in shelters kills me to think about.
Many thanks I have learned a great deal. WoofNWinny I am greatful for all the links.
Saddly, although they stole our hearts, we are going to pass on these pups. The state run shelter will not alow them to leave the property un-altered because that is the law. They will not do tubal, as that is not the goverment approved way. 
I am hoping we can find a pup at a different shelter. We prefer a pup to an older dog, but we may have to reconsider this.
[QUOTE=Rhyadawn;7239283]
My vet recommends between 18 to 24 months of age.[/QUOTE]
No freaking way I am having a male or female in my house that long unaltered. Don’t want to deal with urine marking or heat cycles.
[QUOTE=foundationmare;7239044]
Wendy, shelters must be concerned about irresponsible owners. It is largely why they exist. Puppies are cute. They attract impulse buyers. They too often aren’t responsibly handled and yet another crop of oops puppies are produced to wind up in shelters, and euthed because there is no place for them.
Responsible owners? Way too few and far between.
As far as adopting older dogs? Go for it! It is my dream to adopt oldsters and give them the best years of their lives. Or months. Or days,[/QUOTE]
In a perfect world, maybe we could follow Wendy’s advice. Unfortunately, the world is not perfect.
foundationamare, there is nothing more gratifying than adopting an older dog. I adopted my 15 year old cocker a year and a half ago at 14. She’s still (after emergency gall bladder surgery) going strong!
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7239610]
In a perfect world, maybe we could follow Wendy’s advice. Unfortunately, the world is not perfect.
foundationamare, there is nothing more gratifying than adopting an older dog. I adopted my 15 year old cocker a year and a half ago at 14. She’s still (after emergency gall bladder surgery) going strong![/QUOTE]
Even adopting adult dogs that aren’t old, is so helpful. Many people just want puppies, so the adults are the ones that languish or get euthed.
I would never voluntarily get a puppy. Don’t want to deal with the housebreaking, chewing, and other puppy things. Even if an older dog isn’t housebroken, they are usually easy to housebreak, because they CAN hold their bladder longer, unlike puppies that need to go out every couple of hrs.
[QUOTE=jetsmom;7240007]
Even adopting adult dogs that aren’t old, is so helpful. Many people just want puppies, so the adults are the ones that languish or get euthed.
I would never voluntarily get a puppy. Don’t want to deal with the housebreaking, chewing, and other puppy things. Even if an older dog isn’t housebroken, they are usually easy to housebreak, because they CAN hold their bladder longer, unlike puppies that need to go out every couple of hrs.[/QUOTE]
All of my current dogs were older than 6 months when I adopted or found them. I don’t know that I want to go back to dealing with a puppy again.
And you’re right, much easier to housebreak (if they’re not already housebroken). The chewing stage is usually over as well.
Oh, I agree. The last puppy I had is now eight years old. She was so much trouble (3 am excursions to the back yard; cooking for her since she picked up giardia in the shelter and couldn’t eat kibble for months; having her spayed - at 2!:); dealing with adolescent zoomies, etc.) that puppies are only now starting to look cute to me again.
It’s just like trying to explain something to an adult human vs. a child. Adults are far easier. And you grow just as fond of them, and they you, as one you’ve had from infancy.
It’s the lesser of 2 evils. Spay/neuter at a young age or take a chance that adopters will be responsible pet owners. I think we all know how that works out. My personal pets are altered usually around 6 months.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7239534]
No freaking way I am having a male or female in my house that long unaltered. Don’t want to deal with urine marking or heat cycles.[/QUOTE]
I’ve had many intact males over the years and never had a problem with marking in the house. I don’t tolerate it.
And as for intact females. Again, not really an issue. I don’t have carpet. My boys stay in a different room when my bitches are in season. No problems. No whoopsies (at least not yet).
I work in a shelter. We have to spay/neuter before they leave the shelter. There is no other alternative. We are not a public/government run shelter, and it is our choice to spay and neuter them early.
If we didn’t, about 80% of the people would follow our rules and bring them back in for a spay/neuter. The other 20% would either not bring them in, or bring them in pregnant, and then we’d be dealing with their puppies in a year. Too many dogs die in the shelters, and the minimal chance of a later health problem in some of the dogs we spay early is not a good reason to allow more to die.
On an anecdotal note…
Molly, pit/lab mix, spayed at 12 weeks, euthanized at 13 due to malignant melanoma in her lungs. She did agility and obedience.
Corey, boxer, neutered at 18 months, 2 CCL tears at age 4, died of congenital heart disease (both parents tested clear) at 5 years. Did agility and obedience
Shady, terrier/dachshund mix, spayed at 2 years after one litter, euthanized at 18 due to aortic aneurism. She did obedience and anything else I could torture her with.
Casey, boxer, neutered at 12 weeks, age 9 now, no cancer, no ortho problems, no other issues other than being allergic to Florida. Does obedience.
Oliver, shih Tzu, neutered at 6 years (show dog, had a Ch. title), euthanized at 7 years due to dry eye, chronic SEVERE skin problems, and arthritis in his back.
Grizzly, lab/greyhound mix, neutered at 4 months, did agility and obedience, no ortho problems ever, very, very fast runner with quick turns, died at 9 due to lymphoma in the intestines (he had IBD, specialist said they were related).
Interestingly, the only CCL problems I had were on the boxer who was intact until 18 months. No bone cancers, no urinary incontinence even on the females, no recurrent UTI’s. Honestly, never had a dog with a UTI.
I rescued a doberman mix who had been spayed at 10 weeks, 2 weeks before I adopted her. It took until she was 10 MONTHS to housebreak her. Our previous Weimaraner puppy was housebroken at 10 WEEKS. Little doberman tried very hard not to pee but it would literally just start leaking out. She does seem to be ok now (just turned 1) but it was a nightmare to housebreak her and my husband wanted to give her back to the rescue many times. I wish these rescues would just charge a deposit that was only refundable if dog was spayed by 6 months or whatever. But 10 weeks is way too young.
Pleiad, slow housetraining isn’t due to early spay/neuter. Some dogs just take longer to train than others. That’s normal. I’ve had some dogs (with early spay) house trained by 12 weeks, my one year old cattle dog still isn’t reliable. Just like kids, time needed to house train varies greatly.
If we charged a deposit, people either wouldn’t adopt, or they wouldn’t get the dog spayed. Yes, the shelter gets to keep the deposit, but there are still new, unwanted dogs and cats being born. The deposits won’t cover the expense to take care of all the new ones.
People don’t want to work…they want easy. Which means we perform pediatric spays. Today I got a dog returned to the shelter. She’s 10 months old, adopted at 8 weeks. She’s back because she chews things. I asked if they had talked to a trainer, or if she was crated. She had a plastic crate that was chewed on, I asked if she’d used a metal crate and I was told they didn’t want to buy a new one. I asked if they tried a trainer and got told that they didn’t have the time to deal with it. I suggested tethering, and was told that she didn’t want to have to deal with the dog on a leash all the time, and I was stupid for suggesting it. People are LAZY, they don’t want to work, they expect a dog to be instantly trained, always understand that they shouldn’t growl at strange friends, children, or visitors, but should instantly understand that the burgler needs to be bitten. They want them to housetrain themselves. And they don’t want to have to worry about bringing them back to the shelter in four or five months after adoption for spay and neuter.
[QUOTE=Pleiad;7240816]
I rescued a doberman mix who had been spayed at 10 weeks, 2 weeks before I adopted her. It took until she was 10 MONTHS to housebreak her. Our previous Weimaraner puppy was housebroken at 10 WEEKS. Little doberman tried very hard not to pee but it would literally just start leaking out. She does seem to be ok now (just turned 1) but it was a nightmare to housebreak her and my husband wanted to give her back to the rescue many times. I wish these rescues would just charge a deposit that was only refundable if dog was spayed by 6 months or whatever. But 10 weeks is way too young.[/QUOTE]
That has nothing to do with early spaying. Either she just took a long time to housebreak, or perhaps she was just a submissive peer. If it was truly incontinence from spaying, it wouldn’t just go away on it’s own.
If we’re doing anecdotal stories now… my lab spayed at 3 developed incontinence at 9, and tore her ccl at 7. My parents last lab was spayed at 7 weeks (long time ago!) and was in great health until she passed away at 15.
MKSmith, all of my dogs have been large and I’ve always speutered between 6-8months old. Well, when possible. If I get them older then they are speutered older. If I’m planning on the male being neutered I prefer by 8-10 months at the latest to avoid having to have the scrotum removed also.
As for early speutering…unfortunately there are 2 definite absolutes in the world pertaining to dogs:
- The most common dog BY FAR is the uwanted shelter dog. Outnumbers every other breed/type by many multiples.
- The most common dog owner BY FAR is the barely responsible one.
Reason #2 is the reason for #1. It’s a vicious cycle.
Shelters have to weigh the benefits against the risks. And it doesn’t matter if those of us who are responsible and experienced dog owners tell them that we are…they hear that from everyone who wants a dog or puppy.
If we’re on an online forum specifically for discussing our animals, then we’re obviously the type who care a lot about them and want to learn and share knowledge about our pets. So of course we’re going to share a lot of opinions. But we’re not the majority of potential pet owners, so we can’t make unilateral decisions or proclamations about how shelters should run due to how owners act. The few can’t make decisions for the many.
Some posters also have very unusual and undereducated opinions on things and then regurgitate them as facts disguised as Orders from On High.
Charging a deposit that you only get back if the animal is neutered does not work as well as we (general responsible pet ownership we) would hope/like it to work.
I heard from more than one person that losing the deposit was no big deal because it was less then what the surgery cost at the vets so in the long run they were saving money.
It is hard to have a logical program when people think like that.
Juvenile spay/neuter means that nothing adopted will make more pets that end up in the shelter.
[QUOTE=csaper58;7239341]
Many thanks I have learned a great deal. WoofNWinny I am greatful for all the links.
Saddly, although they stole our hearts, we are going to pass on these pups. The state run shelter will not alow them to leave the property un-altered because that is the law. They will not do tubal, as that is not the goverment approved way.
I am hoping we can find a pup at a different shelter. We prefer a pup to an older dog, but we may have to reconsider this.[/QUOTE]
You may have better luck with a private shelter/rescue that may not have to adhere to the state law. If you’re dealing with an individual and can provide good references, they may see that you’re not part of the problem. 
If not, then I guess you’d need to adopt a young adult. You’d almost certainly be saving a life if you did. Adults are far more difficult to adopt out than puppies.
Ultimately chances are slim altering or keeping intact will make a significant change in life expectancy in a large breed.
I wouldn’t pass up a nice dog because it was altered early, especially if it was a rescue. If it was a breeder dog, I personally would spay a little later but the vast majority of early spay/neuter shelter dogs don’t come into the vets for incontinence or bone related issues.
My theory is either they are lemons, or they are not. I know just as many intact lemons as altered ones .
I also feel like if you pass on one you really like, and find another, there are no guarantees that dog will be healthy either.
But each to their own.
[QUOTE=wendy;7238698]
there are so many downsides to neutering so young that I wouldn’t even consider adopting an animal that has had that done to them- it dramatically increases the risk of the dog developing a number of different cancers, and suffering from a number of orthopedic problems. Plus causing icky problems like recurrent UTIs and vaginal infections, and possibly incontinence.
it’s incredibly easy for any responsible owner to keep their dog from breeding until it matures fully and can be safely neutered.
The rescues and shelters need to reconsider their policies on this because as more people learn about the health risks associated with early neutering, fewer people will be wiling to adopt from them. Buy from a breeder who doesn’t have bizarre ideas about early spaying, or look for one of the more sane rescues.
When you get a pediatric spay, and she proceeds to suffer from recurrent UTIs, vaginal infections, incontinence before age 2, blows out both CCLs, and then dies in middle age from a kind of cancer strongly linked to early spay, you decide you never want to even risk going through that again. The money spent buying a well-bred dog who can be spayed at a more logical time of life will end up saving you a fortune in vet bills.
If the shelters are more worried about accidental breeding than about the welfare of the animals they adopt out, maybe they should close down.
Or perhaps try a less invasive pediatric surgery? tubal libation as a young puppy, but leave the ovaries/testes.[/QUOTE]
Just wondering…is Wendy an expert on EVERYTHING?? (insert sarcasm here)
