The house has been so empty since Babe passed that we have begun the search for a pup.
The local humane society has two that we like, (8-10 weeks old german shepherd cross females)
They will not allow a pup to be adopted unless it has been spayed/neutered.
Is there a down side to spaying a large breed puppy this young? I am really worried about incontinence and bone development. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
This is a topic that people get very heated about as some research indicates that there can be negative consequences for development. However, I think the humane society and shelters have no choice but to make this decision based on the irresponsibility of many pet owners. Anecdotally, I know many dogs fixed at a young age that are very healthy.
[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7237869]
This is a topic that people get very heated about as some research indicates that there can be negative consequences for development. However, I think the humane society and shelters have no choice but to make this decision based on the irresponsibility of many pet owners. [/QUOTE]
Yes, this.
There is accruing evidence that you can adversely affect development by altering an animal at such a young age, but for humane societies, I don’t think they have a choice.
I have two dogs that were “fixed” at 8 weeks, and both blew out their CCLs by 2-3 years old. Related? Who knows. Their ortho surgeon thought so.
This was a topic that was integrated into my Master’s thesis.
Bitches altered at 8-10 weeks are going to experience two major anatomical changes: bone physeal closure will be delayed, resulting in a taller dog, and external genitalia will be infantile (not fully developed). Delayed physeal closure may or may not cause problems, it’s a topic up for debate. However, infantile external genitalia can be an issue. The clitoris will not protrude all the way - it will be enveloped by vaginal folds, and these folds create crevices that are GREAT for trapping dirt, bacteria, dried urine, etc. that can potentially lead to vaginitis and an increased frequency of UTIs.
My dog, a dach x heeler, was spayed at 8 weeks and she exhibits both these features. She’s just over a year so I haven’t experienced any potential repercussions from her height, but I have to be diligent about keeping her vaginal area clean. Luckily for me, she does a great job on her own - she cleans herself down there nearly as often as a cat! Regardless, check the area frequently and wipe down if needed.
In case anyone brings up risk for urinary incontinence - I studied this in depth as well. Based on the literature, I do NOT think spaying earlier increases risk for urinary incontinence. UI is the result of a relaxed urethral sphincter that is a direct consequence of spaying. In some dogs, the urethral sphincter relaxes immediately and UI onset is sudden. In other dogs, relaxation to the point of UI is a process over time and won’t manifest until awhile after surgery. The literature does not indicate that the time of spaying dictates UI development because dogs spayed at all ages can become incontinent. For the dogs with UI I recruited for my research, my range of spay age was 3 months - almost 5 years.
In summary? Spaying a dog at 8-10 weeks isn’t the end of the world in most cases. Just keep on top of having a clean vaginal area and the pup will likely be a-ok 
There are definitely pluses and minuses with the main plus being the fact that there is no way that animal will ever reproduce and add to the overpopulation problem. I have a client’s dog here 5 days per week that is 7 months old and I have toyed with the idea of ripping his nuts off with my bare hands if they don’t neuter him soon. He is driving me crazy! His latest thing is marking is favorite people, thankfully I am not one of them but my daughter and her boyfriend are.
handydandyjake, when UI onset is sudden, and immediately after spaying, what is the likly cause? this happened to my dear Babe and I realy want to prevent it in my next dog if possible.
Whoever figures that out and can then prevent it is going to be a rich person
Urethral sphincter tone decreases in ALL dogs that are spayed. Pre-spay tone is around 18 mmHg H20, post spay is around 13 mmHg H20 if I remember correctly. However, in some dogs, urethral tone decreases even further (~8 mmHg H20 or less), and these are the dogs that develop UI.
Two reproductive hormones secreted by the brain, LH and FSH, are controlled by estrogen feedback from the ovaries to create this feedback loop that keeps hormone concentrations in check. When the ovaries are removed, that feedback loop is disturbed and as a result, LH and FSH levels skyrocket and remain permanently elevated for the dog’s life.
Receptors for LH and FSH have been identified in the canine urinary tract, indicating that there may be a relationship between LH/FSH and the development of UI. Sure enough, when I decreased LH concentrations in study dogs with UI, some of them had continence restored. Strangely though, treatment was only effective for about 50%, so the real mystery is what causes the differing responses to treatment. I talk about it a bit here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24100163
but it’s not an open-access article so the full discussion may not be accessible to you 
Anyway, I wish I had an answer for you. I CAN tell you that spaying an overweight/obese dog predisposes them to UI up to 3x more than if they were a healthy weight, so something to keep in the back of your mind if it ever comes up. But as of right now, researchers have not been able to figure out the rhyme or reason as to why some larger-breed dogs experience a super-reduced urethral tone post-spay and others don’t. It has something to do with LH and FSH, but response seems highly individualized.
Now if we could PREVENT that skyrocket of LH and FSH at the time of spaying and keep those hormone levels down, I think incidences of UI would drastically reduce. Unfortunately, there’s no product on the market that can do such a thing - the one I used myself was discontinued in 2009 and was short-acting anyway (~5 month duration before re-immunization was needed). But developing a long-duration product that could keep LH and FSH down I think is on the horizon. Such a product would also work as a method of immunocastration and that’s a particularly hot topic right now
I don’t think shelters have a choice. All three of my dogs were spayed/neutered between the age of 8 and 12 weeks. My 11 yo female has never had a issue, my three yo male has never had a issue. My other dog is 4 months… so it doesn’t really count.
I work at a shelter and we did the deposit but were not getting dogs back, so we moved to spaying/neutering at a young age.
Thanks all for the input so far. handydandyjake, thank you for all the info on post spay incontinence. For so many years I wondered if I, or the vet, did something wrong. It is nice to finally be free of that bit of guilt.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7237942]
There are definitely pluses and minuses with the main plus being the fact that there is no way that animal will ever reproduce and add to the overpopulation problem. I have a client’s dog here 5 days per week that is 7 months old and I have toyed with the idea of ripping his nuts off with my bare hands if they don’t neuter him soon. He is driving me crazy! His latest thing is marking is favorite people, thankfully I am not one of them but my daughter and her boyfriend are.[/QUOTE]
It’s a shame about the terrible, terrible accident where he fell down when and ruptured himself and had to be castrated to prevent further pain. I’m so sorry, I had them give him an extra shot of torb and here’s some cookies for when he feels better.
Is there a down side to spaying a large breed puppy this young? I am really worried about incontinence and bone development. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
there are so many downsides to neutering so young that I wouldn’t even consider adopting an animal that has had that done to them- it dramatically increases the risk of the dog developing a number of different cancers, and suffering from a number of orthopedic problems. Plus causing icky problems like recurrent UTIs and vaginal infections, and possibly incontinence.
it’s incredibly easy for any responsible owner to keep their dog from breeding until it matures fully and can be safely neutered.
The rescues and shelters need to reconsider their policies on this because as more people learn about the health risks associated with early neutering, fewer people will be wiling to adopt from them. Buy from a breeder who doesn’t have bizarre ideas about early spaying, or look for one of the more sane rescues.
When you get a pediatric spay, and she proceeds to suffer from recurrent UTIs, vaginal infections, incontinence before age 2, blows out both CCLs, and then dies in middle age from a kind of cancer strongly linked to early spay, you decide you never want to even risk going through that again. The money spent buying a well-bred dog who can be spayed at a more logical time of life will end up saving you a fortune in vet bills.
If the shelters are more worried about accidental breeding than about the welfare of the animals they adopt out, maybe they should close down.
Or perhaps try a less invasive pediatric surgery? tubal libation as a young puppy, but leave the ovaries/testes.
My orthopedic surgeon and my veterinary chiropractor said early neutering likely contributed to Dennis’ 2 CCL tears. I will wait until maturity to neuter my next big dog. $7000 is a lot of money to spend on a dog within 2 years. I wonder if you could have a vasectomy done instead? You’d still comply with the shelters requirements, but still have the hormones for growth and development.
[QUOTE=wendy;7238698]
there are so many downsides to neutering so young that I wouldn’t even consider adopting an animal that has had that done to them- it dramatically increases the risk of the dog developing a number of different cancers, and suffering from a number of orthopedic problems. Plus causing icky problems like recurrent UTIs and vaginal infections, and possibly incontinence.
.[/QUOTE]
So do you think it’s better to not adopt from a shelter, so the dogs are euthed instead? That’s certainly not better for the dogs!
OP, if you are concerned, you can always adopt older dogs…
Wendy, shelters must be concerned about irresponsible owners. It is largely why they exist. Puppies are cute. They attract impulse buyers. They too often aren’t responsibly handled and yet another crop of oops puppies are produced to wind up in shelters, and euthed because there is no place for them.
Responsible owners? Way too few and far between.
As far as adopting older dogs? Go for it! It is my dream to adopt oldsters and give them the best years of their lives. Or months. Or days,
[QUOTE=wendy;7238698]
there are so many downsides to neutering so young that I wouldn’t even consider adopting an animal that has had that done to them- it dramatically increases the risk of the dog developing a number of different cancers, and suffering from a number of orthopedic problems. Plus causing icky problems like recurrent UTIs and vaginal infections, and possibly incontinence.
it’s incredibly easy for any responsible owner to keep their dog from breeding until it matures fully and can be safely neutered.
The rescues and shelters need to reconsider their policies on this because as more people learn about the health risks associated with early neutering, fewer people will be wiling to adopt from them. Buy from a breeder who doesn’t have bizarre ideas about early spaying, or look for one of the more sane rescues.
When you get a pediatric spay, and she proceeds to suffer from recurrent UTIs, vaginal infections, incontinence before age 2, blows out both CCLs, and then dies in middle age from a kind of cancer strongly linked to early spay, you decide you never want to even risk going through that again. The money spent buying a well-bred dog who can be spayed at a more logical time of life will end up saving you a fortune in vet bills.
You cannot say a dog spayed at a young age will have issues, because chances are she won’t. That is what the studies are showing, unless the dog is going to do agility… etc! Then s/n young is not a issue and a far better way to quarentee no unwanted litters.
If the shelters are more worried about accidental breeding than about the welfare of the animals they adopt out, maybe they should close down.
Or perhaps try a less invasive pediatric surgery? tubal libation as a young puppy, but leave the ovaries/testes.[/QUOTE]
You know what shelters are worried about? Are you aware of how many animals are put down each year at shelters? 3 to 4 million, THREE to FOUR million! That is not okay.
People need to be spaying/neutering and people aren’t good enough to get the animal done. So, we have too. It is not a decision shelters take lightly.
Rescues/ shelters are most concerned with the animal population as a whole. The ultimate goal of any reputable shelter/rescue is to not need to exist.
But leave it to Wendy to come in and suggest buying from a breeder who doesn’t care if you spay/neuter. Cuz those are the reputable ones.
OP- since apparently there is only room for Wendy on that self-righteous horse she rides take everything with a grain o salt. Need any proof take a look at the divorce thread in Off Course.
There does seem to be a link between early altering and problems like CCL tears. So if you’re looking for a performance type dog then I would absolutely not look at one altered that young. I would also find out if you can do a vet check with your vet before finalizing adoption to see how recessed the vulva is, angulation of the hind limbs, etc. While some problems can certainly seem to be linked to spaying/neutering, there are also risks to leaving them intact to sexual maturity.
[QUOTE=Horsegal984;7239139]
But leave it to Wendy to come in and suggest buying from a breeder who doesn’t care if you spay/neuter. Cuz those are the reputable ones.
OP- since apparently there is only room for Wendy on that self-righteous horse she rides take everything with a grain o salt.[/QUOTE]
Pot meet kettle. IME, most reputable breeders are breeding to improve the breed. So no, they don’t really like to place puppies in homes where the line will end. Unless, of course, it’s a pup they don’t believe is breeding quality.
I think wendy makes some valid points. I would have concerns about altering a puppy that young. Particularly a large breed one. What if the OP plans to do agility or other dog sport? IMO, she runs the risk of predisposing the dog to injury.
That said, I understand the frustration of people in rescue and shelter work. I did border collie rescue for a number of years and spent a lot of time at shelters pulling animals. People are idiots when it comes to letting dogs reproduce. Cause it sure ain’t rocket science to keep them from breeding. Until fairly recently, I’ve never altered a dog or bitch unless it was medically necessary. In fifty years, I’ve had exactly zero unplanned litters.
I don’t know why the US has such a problem with this. In other countries, dogs are not sexually altered as a matter of course and they don’t have our overpopulation problem. I don’t know what the difference is.
Anyway. OP -what if you talk to the shelter and give them a vet reference and a couple of personal references? I find exceptions can generally be made to rules, if the people in charge are approached in a respectful manner. Let them know about your concerns and convince them you’re not part of the problem they’re trying to solve.
There are valid reasons for neutering shelter dogs young, BUT, you should know the risks and evaluate what is best for your dog.
When early spay/neutering first became common years ago, I strongly recommended it for shelter dogs. In recent years, as those dogs spayed or neutered at 8 weeks old matured and more research was done on the effects of early spay/neutering and the long-term health outlook, I changed my mind. Personally, I would never neuter a dog of my own anywhere near that young.
Here are a few articles:
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/100301g.aspx
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf
What is the ideal age to spay or neuter a large breed puppy (or dog in general) to prevent the issues?
[QUOTE=M.K.Smith;7239239]
What is the ideal age to spay or neuter a large breed puppy (or dog in general) to prevent the issues?[/QUOTE]
The conventional/recommended age by vets is 6-7 months of age.
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