Thinking about crossing over or just changing over to Western I am a dressage rider thinking about crossing over were just changing over trail lite. My horse is a dutch WB and is broad with protruding shoulders and very little wither. Any suggestions on what and where to look for one? The new ones are very expensive. I like the design and the balance of the saddle. Any input is much appreciated.
I would say you will need an extra wide QH tree or possibly a narrow draft tree, with some extra flair in the leading edge of the bar for shoulder relief.
You can find some custom made similar to the McCall with the same quality from smaller saddle makers, but you most likely will still be in the 2,200.00 to 2,400.00 range, not quite as high as a McCall, but custom always costs more.
I tried one and was less than impressed with the quality. The fleece hadn’t been stretched all the way so there was a bubble gap, there was odd shimming as an afterthought (like the tree was crooked or something so they just stuck some leather shims in there to “fix” it), and there was something else that I didn’t like about it. Granted, that was just one that I tried (brand new), but if that was what their quality control let out, then I wasn’t impressed and wouldn’t buy one.
ETA: I ended up getting a JJ Maxwell and love it. It is a beautiful saddle, comfortable, light enough for me to put onto my horse’s back. It is not a working saddle (couldn’t use it for roping), but for what I do it is perfect.
Southern Trails & Pocket Pony, What companies make a decent saddle on a wade tree? I’d really like to look into this. Ideally, I’d like one used so I can make sure it fits my horse and I. Aaaaand…that my horse will like it!
Is there some particular reason you want a Wade? They’re popular, but most people don’t seem to realize that the extra stock thickness sits you a couple of inches further back (ie, further from a dressage position) than you might otherwise. Wade stock can be 5" wide, where something like a 3B will be 3.5" wide. Every time you move the rider back on the horse’s back there’s an impact to how the ride “feels” to both parties.
Wades are GREAT for roping, but if you just want a nice western saddle there may be better options (proper 3B trees, for example).
I would look into a Saddle that uses an A-Fork, a lighter version of a Wade Tree and you can get them with a beefed up horn if you plan on roping. An A-Fork should put the weight in the 28lb range, plus Saddles using an A-Fork Tree will get you down to the 2,000 range 
I will message you a link.
“A-Fork” just means non-swelled fork. As such, a Wade is an “A-Fork”.
[QUOTE=aktill;8564048]
Is there some particular reason you want a Wade? They’re popular, but most people don’t seem to realize that the extra stock thickness sits you a couple of inches further back (ie, further from a dressage position) than you might otherwise. Wade stock can be 5" wide, where something like a 3B will be 3.5" wide. Every time you move the rider back on the horse’s back there’s an impact to how the ride “feels” to both parties.
Wades are GREAT for roping, but if you just want a nice western saddle there may be better options (proper 3B trees, for example).[/QUOTE]
Can you explain that? What do yo mean by “stock” - is that the tree? What is a 3B tree?
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8565302]
Can you explain that? What do yo mean by “stock” - is that the tree? What is a 3B tree?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, fork thickness. The stock is the material used to make the fork. Front to back along the horse’s back. A wider fork will place you further back along the horse. Most Wades are 5", the “Ray Hunt Wade” being 4.5".
A 3B is another slick fork vaquero-type fork design that uses a metal dally horn:
http://www.ljsaddlery.com/images/ForSale/scott.JPG
Because the neck of the horn doesn’t have to be as wide on a metal horn, the overall fork is narrower. A wood post horn needs a bit more material for strength, but most people like that to dally on anyway because you can throttle the amount of resistance easier without taking a bunch of extra wraps.
The horn is further off the horse’s back for roping though, which is a plus for the Wade.
As in everything, it’s all a balance.
I’m going to refine my roping ability on the post horn saddle I’m currently making (or my wife’s Wade, though she’s going to want it back soon), but the next tree I order will likely be a 3B.
Here is a heavy duty wade http://www.westernsaddlery.us/images/ES-W-3600.jpg
Here is an A-Fork http://www.westernsaddlery.us/images/ES-T-9110.jpg
The A-fork is not as thick in the swell as aktill mentioned because it is not designed as a roping saddle, gives a better riding position for average trail riding.
Weight savings is substantial, maybe 10 lbs less for the A-Fork models
Now if you want to do a little light roping or pull the occasional tree off the trail, here is an in-between ladies model about 33 lbs. http://www.westernsaddlery.us/images/T-8006.jpg
What kind of riding are you wanting to do? I ride dressage now, but have owned a Y-L wade tree in the past. I didn’t love the position it put me in, even though it fit that gelding like it was made for him (it was not). My Martin Saddlery reining saddle is the closest yo a dressage saddle position of any that I’ve ever ridden in. Other quality reining saddles are the same. That said, they’re not good for roping or barrel racing and the more open seat might not be what you want for mountain trail riding.
I don’t like the tall horn. I want a shorter, fatter horn. The rigging needs to be in 7/8 position. I had a wonderful Reinsman All Around, but it had 3/4 rigging and the fork sat too far forward (on current horse’s mother). I’m never going to rope. I want something secure and not too heavy to trail, and as a diversity from my dressage saddle. My dressage saddle is French and I sit well over my leg. I really like the style saddle that Brannaman and Hunt ride in. I’d like to find one with a narrower twist that I can sit over my leg in that looks like one of their saddles. I think they are beautiful. Also want rough out seat and fenders but with a padded seat insert. Tooling on smooth leather areas. The tree also has to flare in front to accommodate my horses big shoulders so it doesn’t inhibit her movement. Does such a beast exist? I guess the first syrup is to borrow a saddle from a friend to be sure my horse will be ok with it.
[QUOTE=Halfling;8566335]
I don’t like the tall horn. I want a shorter, fatter horn. The rigging needs to be in 7/8 position. I had a wonderful Reinsman All Around, but it had 3/4 rigging and the fork sat too far forward (on current horse’s mother). I’m never going to rope. I want something secure and not too heavy to trail, and as a diversity from my dressage saddle. My dressage saddle is French and I sit well over my leg. I really like the style saddle that Brannaman and Hunt ride in. I’d like to find one with a narrower twist that I can sit over my leg in that looks like one of their saddles. I think they are beautiful. Also want rough out seat and fenders but with a padded seat insert. Tooling on smooth leather areas. The tree also has to flare in front to accommodate my horses big shoulders so it doesn’t inhibit her movement. Does such a beast exist? I guess the first syrup is to borrow a saddle from a friend to be sure my horse will be ok with it.[/QUOTE]
This is what he rides:
https://www.freckerssaddlery.com/buck_brannaman.php
You’ll be very hard pressed to find a narrow (by dressage standards) twist in most western saddles…ESPECIALLY with wide set bars and shoulder flare.
I needed to get a custom tree done, then add a LOT of extra leather to make that up. Wide bars and narrow twists are opposite ends. You need to build up the seat with a LOT of extra leather (ie weight) in order to get a narrow range for the pin bones to sit on. Best thing I did for saddle weight was get a narrower horse lol
You’re basically asking for a custom saddle, so don’t expect to find much off the shelf.
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/tree-and-saddle-fitting/factors-that-affect-tree-fit/
On the link above, I sent them the second tree.
[QUOTE=SouthernTrailsGA;8565846]
Here is a heavy duty wade http://www.westernsaddlery.us/images/ES-W-3600.jpg
Here is an A-Fork http://www.westernsaddlery.us/images/ES-T-9110.jpg
The A-fork is not as thick in the swell as aktill mentioned because it is not designed as a roping saddle, gives a better riding position for average trail riding.
Weight savings is substantial, maybe 10 lbs less for the A-Fork models
Now if you want to do a little light roping or pull the occasional tree off the trail, here is an in-between ladies model about 33 lbs. http://www.westernsaddlery.us/images/T-8006.jpg[/QUOTE]
For everyone else, just keep in mind that “A-fork” as being there is a marketing label by that particular brand.
http://www.western-saddle-guide.com/slick-fork-saddle.html
Again, “A fork” and “slick fork” are the same thing, and don’t mean any particular specific thing. They just mean not a swell fork. All can have metal horns or post horns, and may or may not be roping suitable depending on the maker.
[QUOTE=Halfling;8566335]
I don’t like the tall horn. I want a shorter, fatter horn. The rigging needs to be in 7/8 position. I had a wonderful Reinsman All Around, but it had 3/4 rigging and the fork sat too far forward (on current horse’s mother). I’m never going to rope. I want something secure and not too heavy to trail, and as a diversity from my dressage saddle. My dressage saddle is French and I sit well over my leg. I really like the style saddle that Brannaman and Hunt ride in. I’d like to find one with a narrower twist that I can sit over my leg in that looks like one of their saddles. I think they are beautiful. Also want rough out seat and fenders but with a padded seat insert. Tooling on smooth leather areas. The tree also has to flare in front to accommodate my horses big shoulders so it doesn’t inhibit her movement. Does such a beast exist? I guess the first syrup is to borrow a saddle from a friend to be sure my horse will be ok with it.[/QUOTE]
There is so much more that goes into fitting a western saddle than an english saddle, IME. Just note that the chances of you borrowing from your friend and having it be something you both like right off the bat are slim. I’ve put my butt in a lot of western saddles trying to find the one I liked. I bought and sold three and demo-ed a lot more. Rod Nikkel’s website that aktill linked to has a LOT of information that would be good to learn.
Ditto what aktill says about bar width versus twist width. If you want that “close contact” feel that makes you feel closer to the horse, you’re not going to get a narrow twist. The way to get a narrow twist is to build up the seat from the tree, in which case you’re going to be sitting farther away from your horse. That may or may not be an issue for you. Having said that, though, if that is something that is important to you, you’d need to go custom and work back and forth with the saddle maker to make sure you get what you want.
I do wish I had gotten a rough-out seat, as I realize that riding in jeans is slippery! I looked at a lot of the Wade-style saddles, as you are. I tried a Martin, a McCall, as gorgeous used saddle that I don’t remember the name of. I went to a couple other different makers who made a “Wade style” saddle, although it didn’t look the same. I also liked the look of BB’s saddles but didn’t want so much weight, and I’m not going to be roping live animals, although I did want to play with roping and dragging things around (logs or branches); and while I didn’t dally per se, I did use the horn when ponying my pony. In the end I went with a JJ Maxwell because he didn’t live too far from me. I actually trailered my horse over there after I finished riding in a BB clinic so that he could put a lot of different trees on my horse’s back and we could decide which would be best for him.
I find fitting western saddles to be much more exasperating than english saddles.
ETA: seat size is another consideration. When I met with JJ, he suggested I get a 14.5" seat, but I like room to move around in my dressage saddles and was worried that 14.5" would be too small so I got a 15" (my two dressage saddles are 17.5" and 18" and I’m 5’5" 120 - I get a bigger seat so that my knee doesn’t uncomfortably bump into the knee rolls - not a consideration with a western saddle). Well, I probably could have / should have done a 14.5", but it is too late now and it is what it is.
PocketPony, have you tried a “seat shrinker?” There are less expensive ones than these. http://www.freedomrider.com/Saddle-Secure-Seat-Shrinker.html
Now my head is spinning… it took me five years to finally find a dressage saddle that my horse liked that also fit me. If western saddles are harder than I’m SOL.
In your hunt, there is a lot of good info on the http://www.rodnikkel.com/ website! I love going back to that site to read more about saddle fit as I dream of having a saddle that actually /fits/ my horse someday 
Sadly, they have had to retire from making trees
Here is another post she wrote about saddle flare.
Pocket Pony, your saddle is purdy! Do you find that with the way JJ Maxwell saddles have a shorter bar tip (I could be totally mangling terminology there), that even though they use the Steele trees, flare isn’t as much of an issue?
[QUOTE=Halfling;8566870]
Now my head is spinning… it took me five years to finally find a dressage saddle that my horse liked that also fit me. If western saddles are harder than I’m SOL.[/QUOTE]
Most western saddles are designed for relatively narrow, relatively slab shouldered horses IME. People seem to find the most trouble fitting flat backed, low wither, big shoulder english horses…especially if their budget is for “just a trail saddle” (ie, $500-$1000).
They’re also harder to fit because they can’t be flocked to suit. Padding an out of shape tree to fit a horse just doesn’t work long term.
That said, when they fit, they fit. I don’t have to book a $300 fitting with Schleese every 6 months, for example. They also don’t create wither pockets as readily as dressage saddles seem to.
Flare doesn’t seem to be an issue with this saddle. With one of the saddles I had, it seemed the saddle both slid forward AND rocked side-to-side (too wide and/or the bars were too flat I think). With this one, it stays put. I can get my fingertips under the tip of the bar such that there’s not a lot of pressure there, but there’s no big gap where it flares out and thus lets the saddle come forward.
I also had the problem of the backs of some saddles flapping up and down if I did groundwork beforehand.
Saddle shopping/fitting really sucks. I was lamenting the other day as I realized I need to sell some saddles that I have spent (wasted!?) so much money on saddles over the years!
![http://www.westernsaddlery.us/images/T-8006.jpg[/QUOTE]](http://www.westernsaddlery.us/images/T-8006.jpg%5B/QUOTE%5D){kind=link}