[QUOTE=ridgeback;4583667]
Is Hans using draw reins?
http://www.dressage-news.com/?p=4009[/QUOTE]
so what if he is - they only dangerous in the wrong hands and by the inexpereinced people some havethem as tool and only come out when needed
Just interested in knowing how they are portraying the future to the horse
I dunno. Pantomime, maybe?
Like I said it doesn’t matter a thing to me whether it is a Dutch, German or Austrian horse. Permanently depriving a horse of free turnout is against their biology. Nothing more nothing less. The cause doesn’t matter either. Whether you are too lazy to build a proper fence in your backyard, too cheap to spend extra on the ground necessary to provide turnout or if you chose to put your hypothetical monetary risk over the benefit of the horse in your care. The horse has no idea and most definitely no concept of the future. If they had you could tell a slaughterbound horse on some dreadful transportation ‘hey this all is going to soon be over, relax’. Think that might work?
Right, I hereby turn myself in to Kareen and the turnout police… although I am a big advocate of turnout, in the past I have gone whole winters without providing ANY turnout to my horses, due to weather conditions or lack of facilities, and will likely to do so again at some point. Since the horse has ‘no concept of the future’ I am sure they do not understand that winter will eventually subside and they will get turnout again in the summer months. Heck for that matter, they must think that every time I take them to a competition they will never return and it is the end of life as they know it. I never realized that my actions are down to me being a lazy cheapskate, but now I know the truth. All those extra hours of long-lining and hand grazing notwithstanding, I am clearly unfit as a horse owner. Please, come and lock me up and save my horses from my cruelty. :lol:
I think it’s interesting that this article seems to have thwarted some critics to such an extent that their fault-finding is now limited to the horrific plight of the average top level dressage horse.
[QUOTE=BayHorseUK;4587530]
Right, I hereby turn myself in to Kareen and the turnout police… although I am a big advocate of turnout, in the past I have gone whole winters without providing any turnout to my horses, when absolutely necessary due to weather conditions or lack of facilities, and will likely to do so again at some point. Since the horse has ‘no concept of the future’ I am sure they do not understand that winter will eventually subside and they will get turnout again in the summer months. Heck for that matter, they must think that every time I take them to a competition they will never return and it is the end of life as they know it. I never realized that my actions are down to me being a lazy cheapskate, but now I know the truth. All those extra hours of long-lining and hand grazing notwithstanding, I am clearly unfit as a horse owner. Please, come and lock me up and save my horses from my cruelty. :lol:
I think it’s interesting that this article seems to have thwarted some critics to such an extent that their fault-finding is now limited to the horrific plight of the average top level dressage horse.[/QUOTE]
Just like I said people get nasty on this subject because they cannot argue the facts. No one is saying if the weather is bad or 24/7 we are talking about top dressage horses that never get turned out because people put their own self interest ahead of the mental and physical well being of the horse. This is not an emotional issue it is purely a factual one.
Well, I think it’s more likely that the trainers can turn a gelding out than a breeding stallion. I can’t really imagine too many breeding stallions that fit, that would just put their head down and eat in a pasture or trot around a little, without ANY chance of hurting himself.
I think it’s hypocritical to sit and enjoy the entertainment of top level sport, palaver and debate about the results and standings, enjoy how ultra sensitive and fit the horses are that they can be ridden on invisible aids and not even back off during an entire GP test, or a GP, Freestyle and GPS within a few days, and then complain about what people have to do to keep the horses fit for that sport.
This is nothing new, this isn’t something that started recently or is peculiar to dressage. I don’t know of too many top competition horses of any type that are out banging around in a pasture every day.
Even a slight injury can be career ending at this level, a horse can’t do GP at this level with even a very slight problem.
You don’t want the horses competing on medication to manage chronic pain and injuries, you don’t want to see horses that are lame in the ring, but you want them out loose running around - and to be clear, they’d have to be turned loose at shows, because they are at shows much of the time. Most horse show grounds are a little short on pastures and paddocks.
[QUOTE=goeslikestink;4587502]
so what if he is - they only dangerous in the wrong hands and by the inexpereinced people some havethem as tool and only come out when needed[/QUOTE]
Well if you had read the thread that is exactly what I said a couple different times as well as saying I was just asking as I have not seen many dressage people using draw reins. sigh
[QUOTE=slc2;4587546]
I think it’s hypocritical to sit and enjoy the entertainment of top level sport, palaver and debate about the results and standings, and then complain about what people have to do to keep the horses fit for that sport.
This is nothing new, this isn’t something that started recently or is peculiar to dressage. I don’t know of too many top competition horses of any type that are out banging around in a pasture every day.
Even a slight injury can be career ending at this level, a horse can’t do GP at this level with even a very slight problem.
You don’t want the horses competing on medication to manage chronic pain and injuries, but you want them out loose running around - and to be clear, they’d have to be turned loose at shows, because they are at shows much of the time.[/QUOTE]
Well I know many top jumpers and hunters that are turned out. Again SLC you read into things no one said that it is a new thing what I am saying it is hypocritical to debate RK as a training method but not look at the more damaging practice and that would be NO turnout. Your pocket book should not come first IMO.
Top level dressage horses are at home more then they are at shows. This is an issue about their daily lives not when they happen to be at a show for the weekend. They are worked more at a show then they are at home.
Ridgeback, I genuinely would like to debate the facts but people seem unwilling to admit that there are a slew of reasons why horses might not get turnout, and it’s not simply about risks to financial investment. My question for you is why is it MORE cruel to keep a horse stabled as a way of safeguarding future success, as opposed to keeping it in out of necessity? Or, if you feel that both are equally cruel then why are you not campaigning against horse ownership in regions of the world where turnout is not an option? Seriously, there are so many more “average” horses that do not get turnout for various reasons, so why focus on competition horses that make up such a small percentage?
[QUOTE=slc2;4587546]
Well, I think it’s more likely that the trainers can turn a gelding out than a breeding stallion. I can’t really imagine too many breeding stallions that fit, that would just put their head down and eat in a pasture or trot around a little, without ANY chance of hurting himself.
I think it’s hypocritical to sit and enjoy the entertainment of top level sport, palaver and debate about the results and standings, enjoy how ultra sensitive and fit the horses are that they can be ridden on invisible aids and not even back off during an entire GP test, or a GP, Freestyle and GPS within a few days, and then complain about what people have to do to keep the horses fit for that sport.
This is nothing new, this isn’t something that started recently or is peculiar to dressage. I don’t know of too many top competition horses of any type that are out banging around in a pasture every day.
Even a slight injury can be career ending at this level, a horse can’t do GP at this level with even a very slight problem.
You don’t want the horses competing on medication to manage chronic pain and injuries, you don’t want to see horses that are lame in the ring, but you want them out loose running around - and to be clear, they’d have to be turned loose at shows, because they are at shows much of the time. Most horse show grounds are a little short on pastures and paddocks.[/QUOTE]
Actually, slc2, your guesses about the hunter/jumper industry continue to be wrong. I have ridden at plenty of different hunter/jumper barns, and yes, the horses get turned out. This has been true at every hunter/jumper barn I personally have ridden at, and yes, even the horse that is for sale for a quarter million dollars gets turned out. Look down the row of paddocks and fields and there you will see six digit pricetag after six digit price tag turned out in the sun. Some even TOGETHER!
You want to explain to everyone that the top eventers who gallop over solid obstacles at speed don’t get turned out because they might hurt themselves?
No, it is the dressage horses that trot around in a perfectly manicured arena that are most likely to be locked in their stalls; the ones that jump bigger courses than any buck in turnout and gallop through open country are more likely to have owners with some sense.
But not all dressage riders are turnout-impaired; when I was a working student for Lendon Grey, even Idocus got turn out, along with every other horse in the barn.
But wth do I know.
All I have is a belief that they are horses first and show horses second, and if you can’t rustle together the balls to turn out a horse that is “too valuable”, and “preserving your competition goals” becomes more important that “preserving his standard of living goals,” then perhaps you should stick to horses inexpensive enough that you still feel able to treat them like horses.
The best way to avoid losing hundreds of thousands of dollars in investment to a horse is to not buy such an expensive horse in the first place. Really at that point turnout is the least of your worries.
As it is it is colic, not turnout, that is the NUMBER ONE cause of death in horses, (followed by joint injections gone wrong, btw -but how many upper level competitive folks refuse to do joint injections?) and amazingly sufficient turnout is one of the best ways to prevent colic.
Why do vets prescribe handwalking 20min 3x per day for horses that have injuries? Not to heal the injury, generally, but for GUT MOTILITY.
The math is wrong and the fundamental horse sense is wrong.
People prefer to keep their horse at a markedly increased risk for the most deadly issue in horses, all so that they can preserve their wallet over their horse.
I wasn’t even addressing the hunter industry, but I’ve ridden and worked at plenty of hunter barns where there was little or no turnout, and where the more valuable show horses tended to be more restricted in turnout.
I was thinking mostly of dressage, show jumping, to start with. But even in western pleasure, saddle seat, TWH, fine harness, there is quite often, very little turnout of show horses - I’d also mention cutting, reining, and most other riding sports. It isn’t unusual that people with valuable show horses limit or restrict their time out.
In most cases, what I’ve seen is that people do indeed try to turn out show horses of most types whenever they can. But I think once the horse has gotten hurt a couple times, they may not say that out loud, but that may be why they don’t do it.
And I don’t argue that Lendon was able to turn Idocus out, I heard that said often. But I also think, that there are horses that can’t be. And that if Gal and the owners thought Totilas could be turned out, they would turn him out. It would be far less labor for them if the horse could be turned out.
They must have their reasons. Maybe they tried and it just didn’t work out.
You want to argue? Fine. You can continue to argue with someone else, I’ve voiced my opinion which is similar to others here, and am not interested in getting singled out for your snipping and picking just because you think that’s your right to do that any time someone doesn’t appear to be agreeing heartily enough with you for your tastes. This is a forum and it is not a violation of use to disagree with you, as much as you might think such is one of the ten commandments.
I realize that it would be ideal if all horses went out all the time, I spend an immense amount of money and labor to get my own out but I don’t pick on people who have a slightly different approach. I’m sure they have their reasons. It is more important to me to hear a diversity of opinion and hear people’s reasoning than that they all agree.
[QUOTE=slc2;4587618]
I wasn’t even addressing the hunter industry, but I’ve ridden and worked at plenty of hunter barns where there was little or no turnout, and where the more valuable show horses tended to be more restricted in turnout.
I was thinking mostly of dressage, show jumping, to start with. But even in western pleasure, saddle seat, TWH, fine harness, there is quite often, very little turnout of show horses - I’d also mention cutting, reining, and most other riding sports. It isn’t unusual that people with valuable show horses limit or restrict their time out.
In most cases, what I’ve seen is that people do indeed try to turn out show horses of most types whenever they can. But I think once the horse has gotten hurt a couple times, they may not say that out loud, but that may be why they don’t do it.
And I don’t argue that Lendon was able to turn Idocus out, I heard that said often. But I also think, that there are horses that can’t be. And that if Gal and the owners thought Totilas could be turned out, they would turn him out. It would be far less labor for them if the horse could be turned out.
They must have their reasons. Maybe they tried and it just didn’t work out.
You want to argue? Fine. You can continue to argue with someone else, I’ve voiced my opinion which is similar to others here, and am not interested in getting singled out for your snipping and picking just because you think that’s your right to do that any time someone doesn’t appear to be agreeing heartily enough with you for your tastes. I realize that it would be ideal if all horses went out all the time, I spend an immense amount of money and labor to get my own out but I don’t pick on people who don’t. I’m sure they have their reasons.[/QUOTE]
As I side note, I fail to understand why people keep separating the hunter industry from the show jumper industry. At the very least it is a sure sign of somebody who has spent very little time at barns devoted to the non-eventing O/F disciplines. You must have worked at some pretty elitely specialized hunter barns in your day, because last I checked even Scott Stewart had Ken Berkley doing the jumpers and Andre Dignelli’s kids have hunters going in one ring, jumpers in the next and equitation in the third.
Note that I referred to the hunter/jumper industry, which you conveniently shortened in your response to saying you weren’t referring to hunters, you were talking more about show jumpers. That makes no sense.
(Meanwhile, also take note that you were laying claim to having “worked” in “hunter barns”, but were talking about “show jumpers”, indicating that if you DID find a magic specialized hunter barn and do view the disciplines as separate, once again you are making guesses about a discipline you have not personally experienced, since you allegedly worked in ‘hunter’ barns, not with show jumpers, and all.)
The hunter/jumper industry includes hunters, show jumpers and equitation horses. Most barns have more than one type, and all types can go right up there in value. Generally, horses in each barn across the types are treated the same, because nobody says, “Oh, THIS horse can go out because he is a HUNTER, but THIS ONE next to him is a JUMPER so he has to stay in, and this last one does the EQUITATION so he is limited to Thursdays,” so I fail to understand why you are yammering about “not talking about hunters, but rather show jumpers”.
Moreover, I never discounted that there are “other reasons” horses can’t be turned out, or why some horses might have less turnout than others.
My post was limited to
- disagreeing with your usual level of incorrectness whenever your fingers start typing your generalized guesses about the hunter/jumpers
and - disagreeing with the practice of keeping horses in 100% of the time solely for injury prevention.
If you have “other reasons” or there is very limited turnout at your barn, then that is one thing. (However, at some point if you have three outdoors, two indoors, and no paddocks how much is space really a consideration? I have seen facilities like that cry the space cry too and I am always like, “???”)
But if you are looking at 50 acres of extra space and no other issues and are using, “But the SRS is in VIENNA” as your excuse, then I disagree with your reasons. I have seen plenty of dressage trainers at multi-use barns eschew paddock after paddock after paddock because they just didn’t turn out ANY horse, at ALL, on principle, and that is a practice I disagree with no matter what discipline you are riding.
All the cutting people I know turn out and I know some of the top people, reining you are correct because of the hind shoes they wear. Many show jumpers turn out their horses and I know tons of western pleasure people and all their horses go out. In the 30+ years I’ve been in the horse industry it has been more prevalent in the dressage world. This is a dressage board so there is no reason to point fingers at other disciplines.
As for stallions being turned out I agree it is tricky but the most expensive stallions worth the most are TB stallions and you can bet your bottom dollar Storm Cat is turned out and his stud fee was $500,000 and so was Northern Dancer who had a stud fee of one Million dollars with no guarentee of a foal.
[QUOTE=BayHorseUK;4587569]
Ridgeback, I genuinely would like to debate the facts but people seem unwilling to admit that there are a slew of reasons why horses might not get turnout, and it’s not simply about risks to financial investment. My question for you is why is it MORE cruel to keep a horse stabled as a way of safeguarding future success, as opposed to keeping it in out of necessity? Or, if you feel that both are equally cruel then why are you not campaigning against horse ownership in regions of the world where turnout is not an option? Seriously, there are so many more “average” horses that do not get turnout for various reasons, so why focus on competition horses that make up such a small percentage?[/QUOTE]
Define necessity for me. I don’t like any horse locked in its stall 23 1/2 hours a day every day but this is a dressage board not an average horse board. I have not witnessed many average horses being locked in stalls as I do competition horses.
OK, so Barbaro as a 3 year old got turned out.
Anyone else want to come up with a racing TB stallion turned out while COMPETING?
Anyone else want to come up with a competition stallion in any discipline that is turned out while COMPETING?
Not downtime. Not rehab or recovery or the winter off.
While competing.
And maybe at least 5 years old.
I can think of a few–but they are rare exceptions.
They are rare exceptions because it is very rare for all the necessary pre-requisites to be in place that would allow the introduction of turnout, that allow for the stallion to be of a specific mind-set and temperament that allows turnout;that allows for the physical situation to be such that turnout is possible and safe. Not to mention the insurance complications and the ownership complications and the liability complications.
ANd I do not feel sorry for Toto in the slightest. He enjoys his work. He enjoys, I am sure, the hand grazing and the hand walking and the hacking and the attention that he gets on a fairly continuous basis, LOL.
So I will worry about and give my money to hopefully better the conditions of horses that have loads of turnout–and no food. Loads of turnout because no one cares enough to protect them from the elements. Loads of turnout and little water.
Loads of turnout and every rib showing. Loda of turnout in the hopes that the horse himself can find something worth eating.
Those are the horses I worry about.
The really obese ones–they can be someone else’s worry.
Happy New Year!
What BayHorseUK said!!!
People are running out of arguments, so they pick on the lack of turn-out that Totilas receives. Give me a break!
So I invite everybody to go check all the top dressage horses and then see how much turn-out they get. I’m sure you could find plenty of other targets… But then that wouldn’t be as much fun as picking on Totilas now, would it?
You guys are amazing…!
[QUOTE=siegi b.;4587730]
What BayHorseUK said!!!
People are running out of arguments, so they pick on the lack of turn-out that Totilas receives. Give me a break!
So I invite everybody to go check all the top dressage horses and then see how much turn-out they get. I’m sure you could find plenty of other targets… But then that wouldn’t be as much fun as picking on Totilas now, would it?
You guys are amazing…![/QUOTE]
This isn’t only about Totilas or stallions he just happened to spark the conversation about turnout because of the article done on him. You can’t say I’m picking on him I’ve said many times I like the horse. We are talking about dressage horses not starving horses we are talking about people who can afford to take care of their horses.
Yes we are amazing because we care about the welfare of the horses.
Since I live in KY and work in the TB industry I will inquire about other horses but if you want to compare dressage to the TB racing industry you go right ahead. Also race horses get to stretch their legs and run every day unlike sport horses not to mention sport horses compete and breed where in race horses that never happens because of the live cover.
I don’t know even one person who keeps their horses in 23 hrs a day. Not one in any discipline . Ours go out every day for as long as possible weather permitting.
But I can appreciate and accept that the management of our backyard horses may be a wee different from the management of horses competing internationally at the level that Totilas is competing.
I think this is just an attempt to find something ANYTHING terribly wrong with yet another international horse and rider because they are doing so well in competition.
Can’t talk about the halt, can’t talk about the tension, can’t talk about too much…
For all the stars of the past including Ahlerich, Rembrandt, Rusty, matine etc etc and all the old masters included egon vonN, Klimke, Kottas, etc etc, where is the scrutiny of their turnout practices? No, it has to be about THIS horse. He and his trainers must SUCK in some way. Perhaps they club baby seals on the weekend too?
If you want to find abuse and neglect you can probably find some horse that really needs your help much closer to home…
[QUOTE=egontoast;4587747]
I don’t know even one person who keeps their horses in 23 hrs a day. Not one in any discipline . Ours go out every day for as long as possible weather permitting.
But I can appreciate and accept that the management of our backyard horses may be a wee different from the management of horses competing internationally at the level that Totilas is competing.
I think this is just an attempt to find something ANYTHING terribly wrong with yet another international horse and rider because they are doing so well in competition.
Can’t talk about the halt, can’t talk about the tension, can’t talk about too much…
For all the stars of the past including Ahlerich, Rembrandt, Rusty, matine etc etc and all the old masters included egon vonN, Klimke, Kottas, etc etc, where is the scrutiny of their turnout practices? No, it has to be about THIS horse. He and his trainers must SUCK in some way. Perhaps they club baby seals on the weekend too?
If you want to find abuse and neglect you can probably find some horse that really needs your help much closer to home…[/QUOTE]
Please stay on track this is not about the Dutch or their horses this is about dressage people mostly at the top that do not turn out their horses.
[QUOTE=egontoast;4587747]
I don’t know even one person who keeps their horses in 23 hrs a day. Not one in any discipline . Ours go out every day for as long as possible weather permitting.
But I can appreciate and accept that the management of our backyard horses may be a wee different from the management of horses competing internationally at the level that Totilas is competing.
I think this is just an attempt to find something ANYTHING terribly wrong with yet another international horse and rider because they are doing so well in competition.
Can’t talk about the halt, can’t talk about the tension, can’t talk about too much…
For all the stars of the past including Ahlerich, Rembrandt, Rusty, matine etc etc and all the old masters included egon vonN, Klimke, Kottas, etc etc, where is the scrutiny of their turnout practices? No, it has to be about THIS horse. He and his trainers must SUCK in some way. Perhaps they club baby seals on the weekend too?
If you want to find abuse and neglect you can probably find some horse that really needs your help much closer to home…[/QUOTE]
I don’t think this is about one horse, one trainer or one country I think it is a general conversation about turnout that started because of an article about one horse and one trainer.
