Seriously I have been asked this question many times…I am not sure you CAN stop a kicking horse from kicking…they don’t kick to kick, they kick almost reflexively to what they perceive as a danger to them…any thoughts?
A smart rider can really minimize the chances of their horse kicking, but it’s always going to be there. Almost any horse will kick given the wrong circumstances. I’m lucky that my mare is has relatively low pasture status and picks up body language of other horses and has often gotten me out of harm’s way before I even knew what was going on.
We’ve never allowed horses to kick, and we had great success in breaking them of the habit. I can’t swear that the horses in question would never kick again under saddle, but they never kicked in my view. We tended to ride bunched up pretty often and the horses would get jostled occassionally and after an attitude adjustment they didn’t kick so I’d say we were successful.
Once a horse kicked once or prepped to kick, we’d set them up to transgress by letting another horse ride up their butt, and then we’d apply a quick whack with the crop and a loud “no” or whatever as soon as they showed an inclination to kick. After a few times, the horses realized that the behavior was not acceptable. From then on it would just take a little rein check, finger poke in the neck, or raised voice to keep the horse from even contemplating kicking.
If you feel bad about setting them up to fail, you don’t have to, but it means that you have to be constantly waiting for them to decide to kick and you might miss it. Setting the horse up ensured that we’d be ready with the appropriate response.
Obviously this won’t work for all horses, but we had success with ours.
[QUOTE=Jumphigh83;4561436]
Seriously I have been asked this question many times…I am not sure you CAN stop a kicking horse from kicking…they don’t kick to kick, they kick almost reflexively to what they perceive as a danger to them…any thoughts?[/QUOTE]
We reformed my lease horse, who came to my RS with the charming habit of cow-kicking when one curried his right flank.:eek:
RI yelled at him and smacked him for it once and he never did it in front of her again. First time I tacked him up alone, he tried it again (substitute teacher syndrome) - I yelled at him and smacked him and so far haven’t seen a repeat.
It’s something of a reflex action, I suppose, because he still startles a bit when curried on his right flank. I don’t think he believes he’s in danger - he’s just ticklish. But he’s learned that walking, flinching, etc. are all acceptable ways of dealing with being tickled. Kicking is most emphatically NOT.
You are absolutely correct that one can never say never with any horse. But yes, absolutely, to the extent that kicking or biting or bolting are linked to manners and behavior when being ridden or handled by a human, you CAN eliminate it. It’s simply a training issue, like accepting bit and saddle, and collection, shortening and lengthening of strides, jumping, etc.
Ellenor touched on one aspect a bit- horse’s place in the pecking order. In my experience, the better field hunters in general are those that are in the middle to the bottom of the pecking order- more likely in a herd setting to get kicked than do the kicking, and genuinely grateful to have a human protecting them from all that. Alpha horses- whipping in, no problem, but in the field, last one I had definitely had no tendency to kick but did constantly worry that because he had to behave with a rider on his back, someone would nail him as ‘payback’ for what he delivers in a herd setting. It is also my experience that these alphas react most strongly to a whipper in galloping by- even ‘way over there’- because for them, that’s a perceived threat to their self- importance.
When you are training a horse for whatever discipline- think also of group arena settings like hunter u/s or western pleasure- part of that training is impressing on the horse that it may not pin ears, make faces, or threaten to kick. Now, of course, the horse is also relying on the rider to keep 'em safe, so a big part of it is trust- but clear and consistent discpline by the rider is necessary too- horse needs to think that even forming a ‘I want to kick’ thought might just make him die.
In the context of the spun-off-from thread- kickers in the hunt field (and really, kickers anywhere) to me, a huge part of the problem is the cluelessness of the rider who isn’t even aware that the horse is preparing to kick. And I know one or two riders who doesn’t even know that their horse HAS kicked someone until the kickee says something to them. Incredible, but sadly true.
Also for hunting one has the additional and much more important component of the hounds. A horse that has never even thought about kicking another horse when being ridden will often nail a hound that pops out of the brush- one can understand the instinct and the reaction to this new wrinkle for the horse- but it can’t be allowed to happen, ever. That is why riders need to take care when hounds go by, even on the saintliest of horses. First time that horse hunts- that is the main focus of your attention and training, you should be past any tendency to kick at another horse.
FWIW, I have started alot of horses in the hunt field in the last 20+ years. Kicking has been my NUMBER 1 CONCERN, for both my horse and someone else’s.
If mine so much as jump/spook at a hound jumping up from the side as they will do, usually that horse finds another career.
As far as kicking other horses, well ya just have to really pay attention and do your best to nip it quick and if you have tailgaters, then maybe it’s a lot to do with them. I have noticed that the poor riders tend to let nature take it’s course and they leave before too long. ( In our hunt there are only a handful of us old timers who started about the same time as I did, still actively hunting.)
Anyway this year I started using a Noavel Headstall on a 5 year old 17.2 draft cross mare, a alpha, with fantastic results. On hound exercise she would get a little witchey when another horse eased up to our side and I would just bump her with the headstall and before too long it was a non issue. Even my regular hunt horse got really soft in the headstall and would be almost saleable to a amateur if they could pry my hands off the reins.
I ride with this over the bridle and am lucky enough to ride in a hunt where no one so far has been bent out of shape with my tack to make my life miserable.
The company went so far as to make up a warmblood size for me. I have a pony size , regular horse , and draft size. My daughter’s pony was rein wrenching and coming in to the middle of the ring to hang out. That was fixed in about 5 minutes and the pony went into the lesson program the next week.
My hunt horse usually needs a couple of shots of domsodan (sp) to get clipped out, not this year. Put it on, bumped him a few times when we stared to clip him and he stood like a pro.
If you can raise puppies in your barn it helps tremendously with hound kicking. In fact, one of my mares dropped herself on a coop to avoid landing on a hound neither of us saw coming towards us. She loves hounds and when I have puppies it seems that she considers them part of her herd.
At the moment I have 4 hound puppies and my horses love to stand by the puppy stall and watch them play.
I’m amazed at the number of people who don’t realize how unsafe it is to let their horses put their noses under another horse’s tail while standing at a check. That’s the quickest way I know to train a horse to kick! That and tailgating at a gallop. Of course when you’re hunting there will be pile-ups but I’ve found that even green horses can handle that, unless they’ve already learned to be defensive from others tailgating them or allowing their horses to nose their tails.
We always worked on training our horses to maintain distance from the horse ahead and eventually they learned to check themselves. That doesn’t appear to be a super high priority anymore.
SEPowell - Ah yes, the autobreaks! I try to get all my horses to check themselves like that, teaching them to slow when the horses in front slow rather than waiting until there is no space to pull up. All have picked it up pretty well, to the point that once or twice they have autobreaked while I was looking away, and caught me off guard. But they always get a pat, stopping a half horse back on their own - I’m so proud! One we bought as a going hunt horse has such good autobreaks that he can actually unseat me! If we come around a corner, he can stop so hard that I have to put my hands on his neck. But I’ve never touched another horse while riding him, no matter how tight the quarters, so its worth it!
I cannot understand how people can’t feel their horses kick! I manage a barn of hunters, and as such, rarely to never hunt my own horse despite him being perfectly suited to the field. I was out on him for the last hunt of the year, and sure enough, I felt a hind leg come up. Well, that was all I needed, I layed into him. Now I probably hit him once too many, because I was forgetting that I was on my own, sensetive horse instead of my boss’ brutish horses, and I really freaked my boy out, but I doubt if he will ever raise a leg again! I thought he had actually kicked out, but I asked those behind me later, turns out a Jr on a pony had let the pony get soo close she was wearing my horse’s tail as a hat and he had had enough after putting up with her for a little bit, so he just brought up a leg, didn’t even swing it out as a threat. The riders who had been behind me assured me it was entirely the Jrs fault, that my horse wouldn’t have been blamed regardless, but that he did exactly as he should have, a subtle warning but no kick. Annoying that anyone was that close, but it does happen, and I would never have forgiven myself if my horse had kicked anyone, let alone a Jr on a pony.
Funny enough I have always had more problem with other horses than with hounds. The hounds generally learn to stay away from a horses hind end, too bad I can’t say the same for the other riders. Our hunt has a saying that gets brought up ever time kicking is discussed - one of our old members used to say “My horse isn’t a kicker, lets not make him one, hmm?!” to any tailgaters. Seemed to do the trick!
I think timing and a swift correction EVERY TIME an infraction occurs can do wonders with stopping a kicker.
My QH had been used as a breeding stallion prior to my purchasing him as a 6 yr. old. He is now, of course, gelded, but came to me with an inflated ego and sense of self. He was very protective of “his space” when out riding in a group and was quick to threaten or attempt to kick if he felt infringed upon by another horse. He’s a golden angel with hounds thankfully having been ridden out a lot with a small herd of cattle dogs at his previous life on the ranch.
We had two very swift, sharp “coming to Jesus meetings” with a crop and the threatening, kicking behaviors have gone bye-bye. I will still always ride him with a crop and be mindful of his body language, ears, etc. when we get into a pile up, but for the time being, he seems to have become a model citizen in a crowd. He even has made a few friends. LOVES ponies!
As I said, I think timing and three seconds of thinking they are going to die if they kick again go a long way to changing a very dangerous habit.
I’ve worked with several horses that developed kicking habits because they were constantly being ridden by novice riders.
Like one of the other posters, all it usually took to cure was setting up the horse in a situation where they would usually kick and then a swift punishment with voice & crop.
Once the horses realized it was no longer an appropriate behavior, they stopped. I can’t say they’ll never kick again, but they sure think twice if they can get away with it with their particular rider.
Thanks for all the input…I obviously was not talking about a horse that kicks when you handle it, I was referring to horses in the hunt field. I have found that in the heat of battle (hunting) you can NOT trust one that has kicked maliciously in the past…someone comes up behind you with no breaks and presto a kicking incident…was the one with no brakes at fault? Yes, but so what, someone was STILL kicked! Interesting outlooks all! Thanks for the replies!
[QUOTE=starrunner;4562997]
I’ve worked with several horses that developed kicking habits because they were constantly being ridden by novice riders.
Like one of the other posters, all it usually took to cure was setting up the horse in a situation where they would usually kick and then a swift punishment with voice & crop.
Once the horses realized it was no longer an appropriate behavior, they stopped. I can’t say they’ll never kick again, but they sure think twice if they can get away with it with their particular rider.[/QUOTE]
I agree, swift punishment with a crop will make them think twice before kicking again.
I have been on hunts with horses that kick and I get as far away from them as I can. Safety is my number one concern.
It toally depends on the horse rider qualities how he used to make the horse console.
[QUOTE=Jumphigh83;4567065]
Thanks for all the input…I obviously was not talking about a horse that kicks when you handle it, I was referring to horses in the hunt field. I have found that in the heat of battle (hunting) you can NOT trust one that has kicked maliciously in the past…someone comes up behind you with no breaks and presto a kicking incident…was the one with no brakes at fault? Yes, but so what, someone was STILL kicked! Interesting outlooks all! Thanks for the replies![/QUOTE]
he kicks out in that instance as the horse has run up the backof him with no control your in front wise to look behind every so often so you can move out of the way, normally horses that run up the back off people are bargers dont care type, so you can either circle away from him ie get behind the barger , and let them go full trottle and pass the master which is a no no and they will eventually get banned from the hunt, which will slove the problem for you
thing is think - ahead your in control of your horse, so move him out of the way of the horses comming up behind or passing you ie go wider let them pass collect your horse up and let the other people go pass you
[QUOTE=liquidroof;4570255]
It toally depends on the horse rider qualities how he used to make the horse console.[/QUOTE]
Huh?
