Spin off: fléchi droit - is this over bending?

[mydogs]

From the other Linda HJ thread, someone posted about flechi droit being used. When I clicked on a few links, I found a facebook post that explains what FD is used for and some pictures.

In keeping an open mind, I can see how one might think this is helpful in getting a horse to stretch the outside of their muscles. Kind of like a carrot stretch but held longer and while moving. But, I am also imagining a horse who could pop their shoulder out.

So, regardless of the name or where it came from, is this type of stretch undersaddle actually beneficial for the horse?

[mmeqcenter]

Oh fun, it has a name. Working on this right now with my mare, who gets stupid tight in her shoulders and stiff in her neck.

Here’s a discussion
http://myhorseforum.com/threads/thre…-doing.538212/

"1) Fléchi droit

This was essentially taking the historical flexions and applying them in movement, on the straight.
This is a classical movement that was included in both the French and German cavalry manuals.
German cavalry officer:

This movement is essentially, asking your horse to stay bent while moving on a straight line. It is a VERY good test to do on any horse and see if he is following his shoulders, or his nose. Obviously, in English disciplines, we don’t want the horse to follow his nose. The horse should be able to bend any direction and have his shoulders move regardless of this bend.

The easiest way to begin fléchi droit is by asking for a slight bend (with an open poll!!) in the corner or on a circle, and then moving straight while keeping this bend along the wall. As this becomes easier, start to ask for more bend. 45 degrees is the ideal, but in walk, you can go up to 90. [IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:"http://myhorseforum.com/styles/default/xenforo/clear.png)

A rider showing about 90 degrees in walk:
[IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:"https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10443363_10202824436187801_7779792273862581291_n.jpg)

Personally, this is the very first movement I do with all horses immediately after mounting. For me, it is a ‘systems check’. It allows me to see right away if my horse is favoring a particular hindleg, contracted behind an ear, resistant to bend one direction, etc. When you start this movement, pay close attention to what your horse is doing. Is he twisting the poll? Trying to close his poll? Is he avoiding the bend by bringing in his haunches? OR, bringing in his shoulders? Is he offering too much bend? Is he resistant to bend? All of these attempts on his part are to avoid STRETCHING his outside muscles and it will help you to find out exactly where he is most contracted/where there is the most resistance.

Play with it and see what happens. Do it again after your normal schooling routine and see if it is any easier. If it isn’t- your ride did not address some areas of contraction in your horse. Even if it seems as though this is only addressing the neck- it is addressing the WHOLE body of the horse. It takes good balance and muscle suppleness for a horse to bend a clear 45+degrees and keep his four feet on the same two straight lines.

Remember that in this exercise your outside rein is critical in helping to keep the horse straight. Being able to open it towards the wall or close it towards the center of the arena (indirect rein) is crucial in controlling the shoulders. Also remember that ANY bend is useless of the horse is not holding it himself and just hanging on you. [IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:"http://myhorseforum.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/no.gif) So allow your inside rein to be very soft and even slack occasionally to TEST that the horse is holding the bend on his own- sometimes, the horse will then show you a whole new evasion so you can see a way that he was trying to cheat the exercise. [IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:“http://myhorseforum.com/styles/default/xenforo/clear.png)”

[pluvinel]

As I have said before…this is not new stuff. From the Duke of Newcastle’s book…circa 1740.

[alibi_18]

@pluvinel

As I have said before…this is not new stuff. From the Duke of Newcastle’s book…circa 1740.

Would you, by any chance, have a clearer picture of it?

Thanks!

ETA: Just found it! I can now read what’s written!

[pluvinel]

@alibi_18

Would you, by any chance, have a clearer picture of it?

Thanks!

ETA: Just found it! I can now read what’s written!

I actually own a copy…an actual engraving from the 1737 edition.

It is an engraving of Capitaine Mazin mounted in a lesson for use of the cavesson rein to work the shoulders and the haunches.

"Le Capitaine Mazin monte, et Monseigneur le Marquis donne leçon
"Pour aller avec la rêne du Cavesson, dedans la Volte, et la Jambe dehors, la Volte, rênes, et Jambes contraires, pour travailler les éspaulles et croupe ensemble."

[alibi_18]

@pluvinel

I actually own a copy…an actual engraving from the 1737 edition.

Lucky you!.

And you remind me that I have a second edition of James Fillis’s « Principe de dressage et d’équitation » (Dressage and equitation principles) which contains all the flexions! It’s a beautiful book.

[pluvinel]

@alibi_18

Lucky you!.

And you remind me that I have a second edition of James Fillis’s « Principe de dressage et d’équitation » (Dressage and equitation principles) which contains all the flexions! It’s a beautiful book.

Well, then…perhaps we can have a discussion about use of lateral work especially work under saddle. I will have to take a look in the bookshelves, but I don’t believe I have Fillis’ book.

Fillis was a student of Baucher and became the principal trainer at the court of Czar Nicholas and heavily influenced Russian dressage.

And for more riding trivia…since this discussion was precipitated by the discussion of PK’s riding, the way he holds the reins of the double bridle is called the Fillis Method.

[alibi_18]

@pluvinel

Well, then…perhaps we can have a discussion about use of lateral work especially work under saddle. I will have to take a look in the bookshelves, but I don’t believe I have Fillis’ book.

https://ia902606.us.archive.org/25/i…ding00fill.pdf

Here is the book, translated - Check the part if the « ordinary riding » p. 32 to 132 or something. It’s a big file.

Fillis was a student of Baucher and became the principal trainer at the court of Czar Nicholas and heavily influenced Russian dressage.

He was also a student of circus master Franconi.

You’ll find in his book that he doesn’t agree with much of Baucher’s theories. He respects him and the fact that Baucher discovered and practice new ways of riding but at the end he goes against lots of his principles…

And for more riding trivia…since this discussion was precipitated by the discussion of PK’s riding, the way he holds the reins of the double bridle is called the Fillis Method.

I believe his riding was heavily influenced by Fillis.

Fillis credits himself his way of holding the reins as French.

ETA: no mention of « fléchi droit » in the French version. Only lateral flexions.

[mydogs]

@pluvinel

As I have said before…this is not new stuff. From the Duke of Newcastle’s book…circa 1740.

I’m not concerned if it’s new or old, but wondering if it’s actually beneficially or does it over bend the horse and result in their shoulders popping out.

[pluvinel]

@mydogs

I’m not concerned if it’s new or old, but wondering if it’s actually beneficially or does it over bend the horse and result in their shoulders popping out.

So what if the shoulders “pop out?”…if that is what you want. The objective is that the horse is gymnasticized so rider can position the shoulders and the haunches.

If you can mobilize the shoulders and the haunches then the lateral work is a non-event.

Have you ever done Pilates? There is a leg-press exercise done in either the “toes down” or “heels down” position. Depending on your position, different muscles are isolated.

Same with a horse. You are the horse’s physical trainer. You are not riding competition figures when you are training. You are using athletic effort to develop flexibility and strength in the horse.

[alibi_18]

@pluvinel

So what if the shoulders “pop out?”…if that is what you want. The objective is that the horse is gymnasticized so rider can position the shoulders and the haunches.

If you can mobilize the shoulders and the haunches then the lateral work is a non-event.

Have you ever done Pilates? There is a leg-press exercise done in either the “toes down” or “heels down” position. Depending on your position, different muscles are isolated.

Same with a horse. You are the horse’s physical trainer. You are not riding competition figures when you are training. You are using athletic effort to develop flexibility and strength in the horse.

You are right with this.

Flexions are a gymnastic for the shoulders and croup, as it is written on the picture.

At some point, you want the horse to pop his shoulder out. It starts with a bigger flexion from the inside rein and then a small one… but the result will be that the horse will learn to actually go to the outside rein and only then can you regulate the outside shoulder and mobilize it as you wish.

Isn’t ?

[alibi_18]

Also, there was a lot of BV in Baucher’s method.
He actually invented the « Ramené outré » (outrageous collection?!) where the rider, without force, would get the horse’s nose to its chest/shoulders (really deep and round) while walking, trotting and cantering.

Baucher said it was the way of reaching the highest level of legerete.

Go figure.
Picture of Beudant : (yes, the mouth is wide open)

[pluvinel]

@alibi_18

…
Flexions are a gymnastic for the shoulders and croup, as it is written on the picture.

At some point, you want the horse to pop his shoulder out. It starts with a bigger flexion from the inside rein and then a small one… but the result will be that the horse will learn to actually go to the outside rein and only then can you regulate the outside shoulder and mobilize it as you wish.

Isn’t ?

Agree.

[belgianWBLuver]

@mmeqcenter

Oh fun, it has a name. Working on this right now with my mare, who gets stupid tight in her shoulders and stiff in her neck.

Here’s a discussion
http://myhorseforum.com/threads/thre…-doing.538212/

"1) Fléchi droit

This was essentially taking the historical flexions and applying them in movement, on the straight.
This is a classical movement that was included in both the French and German cavalry manuals.
German cavalry officer:

This movement is essentially, asking your horse to stay bent while moving on a straight line. It is a VERY good test to do on any horse and see if he is following his shoulders, or his nose. Obviously, in English disciplines, we don’t want the horse to follow his nose. The horse should be able to bend any direction and have his shoulders move regardless of this bend.

The easiest way to begin fléchi droit is by asking for a slight bend (with an open poll!!) in the corner or on a circle, and then moving straight while keeping this bend along the wall. As this becomes easier, start to ask for more bend. 45 degrees is the ideal, but in walk, you can go up to 90. [IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:"http://myhorseforum.com/styles/default/xenforo/clear.png)

A rider showing about 90 degrees in walk:
[IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:"https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10443363_10202824436187801_7779792273862581291_n.jpg)

Personally, this is the very first movement I do with all horses immediately after mounting. For me, it is a ‘systems check’. It allows me to see right away if my horse is favoring a particular hindleg, contracted behind an ear, resistant to bend one direction, etc. When you start this movement, pay close attention to what your horse is doing. Is he twisting the poll? Trying to close his poll? Is he avoiding the bend by bringing in his haunches? OR, bringing in his shoulders? Is he offering too much bend? Is he resistant to bend? All of these attempts on his part are to avoid STRETCHING his outside muscles and it will help you to find out exactly where he is most contracted/where there is the most resistance.

Play with it and see what happens. Do it again after your normal schooling routine and see if it is any easier. If it isn’t- your ride did not address some areas of contraction in your horse. Even if it seems as though this is only addressing the neck- it is addressing the WHOLE body of the horse. It takes good balance and muscle suppleness for a horse to bend a clear 45+degrees and keep his four feet on the same two straight lines.

Remember that in this exercise your outside rein is critical in helping to keep the horse straight. Being able to open it towards the wall or close it towards the center of the arena (indirect rein) is crucial in controlling the shoulders. Also remember that ANY bend is useless of the horse is not holding it himself and just hanging on you. [IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:"http://myhorseforum.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/no.gif) So allow your inside rein to be very soft and even slack occasionally to TEST that the horse is holding the bend on his own- sometimes, the horse will then show you a whole new evasion so you can see a way that he was trying to cheat the exercise. [IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:“http://myhorseforum.com/styles/default/xenforo/clear.png)”

Luv your post mmeqcenter. I’ll support with a link to a page which has some good photos on FB

https://www.facebook.com/115705575246591/posts/1072979556185850/

[belgianWBLuver]

@alibi_18

Also, there was a lot of BV in Baucher’s method.
He actually invented the « Ramené outré » (outrageous collection?!) where the rider, without force, would get the horse’s nose to its chest/shoulders (really deep and round) while walking, trotting and cantering.

Baucher said it was the way of reaching the highest level of legerete.

Go figure.
Picture of Beudant : (yes, the mouth is wide open)

Ickkk! Baucher did some pretty crazy things in his first manier. It took a chandelier to knock some sense into the man!!

[pluvinel]

@belgianWBLuver

Luv your post mmeqcenter. I’ll support with a link to a page which has some good photos on FB

https://www.facebook.com/115705575246591/posts/1072979556185850/

Isn’t if fascinating that today this a mirror of what was being done about 280 years ago in Newcastle’s teachings?

[alibi_18]

@belgianWBLuver

Ickkk! Baucher did some pretty crazy things in his first manier. It took a chandelier to knock some sense into the man!!

No. It’s from his last teaching theories.

Kerbrech and Beudant wrote about it and rode to his last principles.

[alibi_18]

@pluvinel

Isn’t if fascinating that today this a mirror of what was being done about 280 years ago in Newcastle’s teachings?

The problem are not the flexions or the exercices.

The problem is the cult and the whole program who seems to be solely focused on flexions. Newcastle didn’t invented a new fancy name, and considered these exercices as basic « ordinary » training.
Meaning that at some point, you would go on more advance stuff and not be stuck at those big flexions.

Your picture shows the developement of younger horses ridden in cavesons.

[belgianWBLuver]

Alibi, I do not want to get in a sh*t storm about Baucher and his ideas and methodes, but years ago I did one of my masters (maitrise) reports on Baucher. I spent 2 decades in France and had a few discussions with Henriquet on the subject. He came up with this Ramener outre in his first manier. Kerbrech and Beudant did indeed ride mostly to his second manier, but they also experimented with his first manier. Hell, Baucher was like a mad scientist of dressage with his theories.

[mmeqcenter]

@belgianWBLuver

Luv your post mmeqcenter. I’ll support with a link to a page which has some good photos on FB

https://www.facebook.com/115705575246591/posts/1072979556185850/

Oh none of that is my words I just copied from that link I copied in case anyone couldn’t access it, I thought it was great info