After reading both threads about paying Adult Amateurs, I start to wonder what the advantage of beeing an Amatuer is??? I am starting to think about becoming a Professional myself. If you are not scared to start in Shows in the Open class, I see no advantage at all for being an AA.
And I am used to start against Pros because in Europe classes are not really divided into AA and Open
I like it cause I can show two classes each day, AA and Open as opposed to just Open. But that’s just me
anyone can ride open. One does not have to pick one or give up their ammy status to ride in open
An Ammy can ride both Open and Ammy in regular shows.
But I guess an Ammy cannot take money for the same quality of work… It seemed to me that it was not even accepted in those threads, that an Ammy can ride as well as a Pro… maybe I misunderstood, but it sounded like it… Actually thats why I started the thread, because I wonder what difference does it make whether somebody calls itself a pro or an ammy… People are willing to pay a pro whatever he wants but sneer about an ammy who does not even show (so doesnt break any rules…)
So I would like to hear all the advantages of beeing an ammy…
If advertising a horse, “scored over 70% with an AA” sounds better because it implies the horse is easier to ride. Many times there are more awards to amateurs.
Here, we don’t have separate classes, just separate placing - and you are placed depending on your status with USEF. At this point I don’t have any strong reason why AA is better for me, but no reason not to be, nor am I anywhere near as good as what I think a pro SHOULD be, though better than some pros are, unfortunately…
Through 4th level, you can qualify for Regionals with a lower score as an ammy.
I understand from posts in the Hunter/Jumper forum, that at some of the big, week-long shows, the Open classes are during the week and the Amateur classes are on the weekends, when the Ammies are off work. So the trainers ride their client’s horses in the Open classes during the week to tune them up, and the Ammies arrive on the weekend to ride horses that have already settled in to the routine. So in that case, there might be scheduling problems if you were no longer an amateur. But this might not apply so much to how Dressage competitions are run.
As far as real quality of the competition, the difference between an Open class and an Ammie class, that would no doubt depend on the discipline, the show, the region. Absolutely I see low-level professionals, riding instructors, who squeak by with much lower scores than competent amateurs, or stick to schooling shows and have no rated score record at all. All “pro” means is that you are being paid for some of your work riding, training, or instructing.
Ironically, IME, pros often end up getting less time in the saddle than a well-funded amateur. They might spend their days teaching lessons, or fixing fences, or cleaning stalls because the barn girl had the flu. They might not be making enough income to afford a nice enough horse to compete at the level they should be advancing to, or have the time to school that horse. They might find that they need to put a priority on taking their junior clients to shows all summer, and don’t have time to campaign their own horse at higher levels. So sometimes even capable, promising pros drop out of showing in order to concentrate on earning an income.
I have to say, I have never heard anyone who had a chance to become a “pro” (even in a very small way) turn it down because they wanted to keep ammie status. They were too excited about the chance of getting paid to teach riding!
This might not however apply to all disciplines, and I think you should look around at your local environment and where you plan to advance. It might matter a lot in some particular circuit. Ask advice of those who know your local situation, like your coach.
On the other hand, I went “pro” in an unrelated field that was my passion and “hobby,” and now do that for a living. It really changed my relationship to that field, for better and for worse. I have absolutely no desire to go pro in horses, because I love having an activity that is entirely free of external constraints and expectations. So for me the big value in being an ammie is that I report only to myself, not to any clients.
I am a faux pro because no one, in ten years of asking, has been able to convince me amateur status is worth it.
I am not a professional rider or trainer. I don’t ride like a professional rider or trainer. Anyone watching me for two minutes can tell that.
But, bonus points, I can feed at my barn and hop on someone else’s horse for a lesson.
Or trade website work for lessons.
Or any of the other many ways to cut costs and get some saddle time on a variety of horses that are not open to people who want to keep amateur status.
I have never felt so relaxed, and free, and able to pursue any riding opportunity I want to as I have since giving up on the “you must be an amateur because everyone is an amateur” mentality.
Being a faux pro is the best.
[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8581717]
I am a faux pro because no one, in ten years of asking, has been able to convince me amateur status is worth it.
I am not a professional rider or trainer. I don’t ride like a professional rider or trainer. Anyone watching me for two minutes can tell that.
But, bonus points, I can feed at my barn and hop on someone else’s horse for a lesson.
Or trade website work for lessons.
Or any of the other many ways to cut costs and get some saddle time on a variety of horses that are not open to people who want to keep amateur status.
I have never felt so relaxed, and free, and able to pursue any riding opportunity I want to as I have since giving up on the “you must be an amateur because everyone is an amateur” mentality.
Being a faux pro is the best.[/QUOTE]
I thought that the ammie/pro split was about being paid to teach, to train, or to ride someone else’s horse.
I didn’t think that it would apply to trading other kinds of work for the opportunity to ride. For instance, if you are doing website development for your trainer in exchange for lessons, that makes you a web developer pro, not a riding pro. And I didn’t think that feeding horses in exchange for riding privileges would make you a pro either. In all of these, you are paying barter to ride the horse.
Now, if you got Susie to put training rides on your horse by doing a website for her, then you would be paying Susie and she would technically be a pro.
Or if Susie was doing web development for you, in exchange for you riding her horse.
I don’t think that even being a farrier or a vet or a mane and tail braider would count as being a riding pro.
[QUOTE=Scribbler;8581741]
I didn’t think that it would apply to trading other kinds of work for the opportunity to ride. For instance, if you are doing website development for your trainer in exchange for lessons, that makes you a web developer pro, not a riding pro. And I didn’t think that feeding horses in exchange for riding privileges would make you a pro either. In all of these, you are paying barter to ride the horse.[/QUOTE]
Nope. That’s the “book keeping” loophole that USEF closed years ago and has since been tightening further and further.
If you get paid to do virtually anything by your barn owner and then ride a horse not owned by you (e.g. a lesson horse) you are a professional. Not because you are actually getting paid to teach/train, but because shamateurs WERE using the “I get paid to do ‘book keeping’ and I just ride these horses for free” excuse to get around the pro/amateur rules.
So if I barter a website and ride lesson horses? I’m a pro. And yes, I have that in writing from USEF.
That’s why I call myself a faux pro–no one is ever going to watch me ride and think I actually get paid to ride/train. But I do sometimes do things that, technically, because shamateurs have ruined things for a lot of otherwise honest people, make me a professional under USEF’s rules.
And I’m fine with that.
Scribbler is right - you can do other things for money, as long as you aren’t teaching lessons or training horses. You can do web services, photography services, grooming, vet work, board, saddle fitting - all involving horses! And you would not be a pro. ETA - I assume the lessons are on your own horse.
As for Pros getting less saddle time then Ammies, I think that is VERY RARE - there are not that many well-funded ammies who don’t have to work for a living. And as for not being able to afford the fancy horses, a few Ammies can, but I also think that is not the norm. Most of us Ammie riders don’t have big budgets - for horses, for training, for showing, and most of us work away from horses for a living. AND still spend our few spare moments fixing fences and cleaning stalls.
In response to Manni’s question - in my region, there are a lot of big name pro riders. At some of the bigger shows, we get Olympians in the same ring. It is nice to compete without that level of pressure 
And it makes the classes a bit smaller. And it means you are competing against your “peers”. I think it is kind of modeled after the Hunter world - where they have so many different divisions.
At the smaller shows, we seldom see the divisions split, it is really at the larger shows (they also usually have a division for Jr/YR). It also allows them to spread the classes out more, so a Pro can show, then coach their student, instead of being in the same warm up together.
Personally, I like the division, although I feel bad for some of the lower level Pro riders who have to show in the pro division.
This is the email exchange I had with USEF, and with all due respect to people on COTH, I am going with their interpretation of the rules.
Initial email:
If I make a website for my instructor and take lessons, does it affect my amateur status?
First response:
Are you receiving remuneration as defined below for creating the website?
Chapter 13, GR1306.2
My response:
Yes, it would either be cash or in exchange for lessons. Would it matter if the lessons were only on my own horse vs. on a school horse?
Their response:
You would be permitted to receive remuneration (i.e. cash or free/reduced lessons) for creating the website as an amateur. What you would not want to do is then ride any horses that are under the ownership, training or boarding of your instructor. This could be considered a violation of GR1306.4c pasted below. You would be permitted to take lessons on your own horse and accept the remuneration.
Here in CA there are very good AAs but the Pros are (generally speaking) at a whole different level. And there are lots of them.
Most of us want to compete in the AA division because we would get slaughtered in the Open division anything other than a small local show.
There are lots of other issues as well - if you are riding horses as a pro or teaching lessons, you need liability insurance or you have serious risk. You have to pay taxes on your income.
I could go on and on. It’s a whole different ball game if you turn pro.
Thank you for your answers, I really appreciate it and I see the point. I guess the sentence which was really bothering me was this one…
"I very much appreciate her time and feel that she has helped my horse. Do I feel that she has helped so much that she should charge me what a professional does? No, I do not. "
That really made me feel like Amateurs are kind of abused.
This situation was about a non-showing Amateur who improved the horse, but it was thought he deserved no money for his work because he was an amateur…
I can see the insurance issue, but obviously the owner had no problems with that as long as he was not paying…
I guess the problem was that both parties did not talk about money before the Ammy started to ride the horse. But maybe the Ammy wanted to prove first that he would ride the horse well…
Anyhow this thread got me into thinking about the status somebody should have…
Ribbons, placings, qualifying scores, and year end awards are all easier in amateur competition than open. There are also awards (Dover medal) and programs (AA clinic) for amateurs only.
If you don’t show or show absolutely only for the score and nothing else, then it doesn’t matter. Most of us are a little vain and care about the ribbons and placing and stuff too.
"I very much appreciate her time and feel that she has helped my horse. Do I feel that she has helped so much that she should charge me what a professional does? No, I do not. "
That really made me feel like Amateurs are kind of abused.
This situation was about a non-showing Amateur who improved the horse, but it was thought he deserved no money for his work because he was an amateur…
No I dont think that is what is being said
I think that OP was say while the rider improved the horse, they did not do so much so that they deserved the SAME FEE as the OPs regular trainer.
[QUOTE=hoopoe;8581950]
No I dont think that is what is being said
I think that OP was say while the rider improved the horse, they did not do so much so that they deserved the SAME FEE as the OPs regular trainer.[/QUOTE]
whats the difference??? I think anybody who is improving a horse is doing a great job… it doesnt matter whether one is a professional or an amateur.
[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8581717]
I am a faux pro because no one, in ten years of asking, has been able to convince me amateur status is worth it.
I am not a professional rider or trainer. I don’t ride like a professional rider or trainer. Anyone watching me for two minutes can tell that.
But, bonus points, I can feed at my barn and hop on someone else’s horse for a lesson.
Or trade website work for lessons.
Or any of the other many ways to cut costs and get some saddle time on a variety of horses that are not open to people who want to keep amateur status.
I have never felt so relaxed, and free, and able to pursue any riding opportunity I want to as I have since giving up on the “you must be an amateur because everyone is an amateur” mentality.
Being a faux pro is the best.[/QUOTE]
Faux Pro.
You’re a genius. Wish I’d thought of that!
I recall showing at some pretty big shows in CA about twenty years ago when everyone got thrown into one class, but you could pay an extra fee (less than a full entry, maybe about $20 at the time) so that you could be put with the other AA’s for prizes. But everyone was in the same class as far as the judge was concerned and the amateurs weren’t all together in the order. It made for some ego-busting scores at times. But, I was very proud the time I won an open First-level class with over twenty horses at Del Mar. On a TB.
[QUOTE=exploding pony;8581886]
Here in CA there are very good AAs but the Pros are (generally speaking) at a whole different level. And there are lots of them.
Most of us want to compete in the AA division because we would get slaughtered in the Open division anything other than a small local show.
There are lots of other issues as well - if you are riding horses as a pro or teaching lessons, you need liability insurance or you have serious risk. You have to pay taxes on your income.
I could go on and on. It’s a whole different ball game if you turn pro.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Scribbler;8581698]
I have to say, I have never heard anyone who had a chance to become a “pro” (even in a very small way) turn it down because they wanted to keep ammie status. They were too excited about the chance of getting paid to teach riding![/QUOTE]
Certainly lots of people do, especially in the hunter/jumper discipline, where it matters more, and used to matter more than it does now. You have to be an amateur to ride equitation, and when I turned 18, there simply weren’t 3’ classes open to pros that were interesting to show in if you were an amateur with an amateur horse - mostly just the pre-green classes that were huge and won by very very fancy horses. So for example one of my friends had to choose between continuing to show at all and teaching up-down lessons.
Now there are more choices.
In dressage and eventing, amateur/pro doesn’t matter all that much in terms of your ability to participate in the sport, or how you are scored, so people are more casual about losing amateur status. It does give you more opportunity for certain awards, mostly.
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