So long as the judges continue to be trained to judge by starting with a gait score…then a discussion of gaits will always be there. Take away the importance of the gaits and we might get back to talking about training.
4 Likes
In some of our schooling shows the ribbons are on the Danish system, over 70% = blue, 65-69% = red, 60-64% = yellow, etc. Everyone gets a ribbon. If you have a number of really good rides there are many blues (not often). Small classes may not have any blue ribbons. And you can work on getting a different color at the next show.
While the discussion is about ‘gaits’ my impression is that covers what I would call ‘carriage’ as well - that the horse carries itself in balance for transitions, lengthen/shorten stride and during lateral work. And cross-purpose horses (not strictly dressage-bred) can do quite well at this with training. I do agree with others that training of horse & rider makes this happen and money comes into that training - easier for some people than others.
But how do you separate scoring the gaits from the movement? Not starting with the gaits score might be a start. But then what is your baseline for a movement? Should every judge have a six in mind?
Part of the “problem” is that our breeding has become more specialized, and we are breeding better dressage horses than in the past. As mentioned on the previous page, the scores used to be lower, and scoring in the 70s was almost unheard of. The work was harder for the horses of 30+ years ago, because they weren’t being selectively bred for the conformation of a top dressage horse.
Google some old competition photos from 50 years ago, and you’ll see Grand Prix horses who weren’t coming through and over the back, horses who were inverted, etc. The modern Warmblood is bred specifically for dressage, and the work is easier for them to perform because of their conformation. Asking a Warmblood to do a shoulder-in is going to be easier than asking a halter-bred QH to do it. The Warmblood is going to be able to perform the movement with a lot more suppleness, bend, etc. The QH, on the other hand, might need to compensate to perform the movement - whether that’s tightening his back, not stepping as far underneath his body, or coming above the bit.
It’s like if you told me to touch my toes. I have tight hamstrings, and can barely reach mid-shin. Someone else who’s shorter and doesn’t have tight hamstrings might be able to touch their palms to the floor. If you come back to us both in a month, maybe my suppleness has improved, but I’m still not as flexible as the other person. Maybe I can touch my toes but I’m straining to do so, and the other person makes it look easy. Maybe I bend my knees slightly to get the job done, and hope you don’t see that. How do you judge the two of us? You don’t know where my starting point was, you don’t know what theirs was. All you can judge is the few minutes that the horse and rider is in front of you. Should we ask a judge to evaluate the horse’s breed type and conformational flaws and consider their weaknesses, in order to assess what they have to overcome, and how training the downhill QH is more difficult than training the WB? How do you set objective standards like that? I’m not completely trying to play devil’s advocate here, but I’m curious at how this can actually be done in concrete terms, rather than just saying “let’s judge on the training, not the gaits”.
Look, I think that there is a legitimate argument that we have swung too far in the opposite direction - there are a lot of flashy horses who make waves at the young horse competitions and the stallion shows, and then don’t hold up to the upper level work.
6 Likes
Sorry you did not really read what I wrote. I said the word gaits might be misleading. Its about the horse being expressive… And that exactly is training…
This is all very silly. There will never be a level playing field in any human or natural pursuit. IT JUST AIN’T THE WAY LIFE HAPPENS. Live with it, and be happy that you don’t get eaten because you are inferior.
7 Likes
What about having a class only for riders that own that horse? No leases. Only horse’s owner can ride. CBLM Championships slot riders based on experience of the rider which is also a bit unfair. I’ve ridden thru PSG so I end up showing against the pros on the lovely, talented horses that someone else owns. I have no issue showing against a pro that is riding a horse they themselves own. I am still at a disadvantage to the pros in the class the way it is now since I rode PSG several years ago (and didn’t score well). I still have to compete my horse against the pro that has 6 horses at the show from Training Level to Grand Prix.
But this goes both ways. What about the AAs who lease horses because they can’t afford to own their own. Presumably you’d rather compete against these riders than pros on client horses? From what I know about the A/O Hunters, it’s great for amateurs who can afford horses at that level, less so for ammys who have the skill but only have the money to lease.
1 Like
Here in region 6, separating the open and AA is the norm - at least for 3rd level and below. The only time I see them combined is when the combined class is less than 5 or 6 riders (and even then, they are often separated). If the class is that small, I wouldn’t really expect them to separate, I wouldn’t want to be in a class of 1, 2, or 3 riders. That makes my ribbon pretty meaningless anyway.
My thoughts are divided about separating out the JR/YR’s for a small class. Generally, I don’t think it is too meaningful to give them a 1st or 2nd place ribbon just because there are only 2 YR’s in a class. But I do like to see them separated in the FEI classes because just the fact that a YR is showing at that level is worthy of recognition.
1 Like
But, you are always striving to improve the horses movement. No, the “6” mover may never be capable of being an “8” mover – but with more training, muscling, better riding, next year, he will probably have loftier gaits, more freedom in the shoulder, more “glitz” than he does now. He may get to be a 6.5 or a 7, and should be rewarded accordingly. And believe me, there are plenty of horses who look like “7” movers, who are actually just as well-bred and athletic as the “8” movers, but you wouldn’t know it watching them in the moment because they don’t have the training, balance, muscles, and good riding to show what they are capable of. There is really no way to separate what “comes naturally” and what is training. You need to be training for more activity, more impulsion, more suspension, more uphill all the time – not just training for acceptance or aids, correct alignment, and “correct” gaits. So all of these things need to be rewarded in the scoring.
2 Likes
I didn’t see the horse in question, so I can’t comment on it specifically. It depends on what you mean by “coming under”. For a lengthening, you clearly do expect to see a lengthening of stride, some over-reach, and the hind legs reaching forward more than they did in the working trot. However, you CANNOT REQUIRE an UP-hill balance, or LOWERING of the croup. The horse only needs to be in a LEVEL balance. Being more up-hill than that is not penalized, but it is not required - even for a 9 or a 10. A horse can only reach so far forward without lifting the shoulders and/or lowering the croup beyond a level balance. You need to be ready to give a 9 or a 10 for that. Because lifting the shoulders beyond level, or lowering of the croup are elements of collection and are not required at first level.
As I said, I did not see the horse in question, but I have participated in one L program and audited another, and at those programs the teaching was completely in line with what I have explained.
1 Like
I would LOVE to see a separate “novice” class offered at Tr-1, 1st-1 and 2nd-1 just for teams where neither the horse nor rider have ever competed above that level (i.e. a 1st-1 test where neither horse nor rider have ever competed above first level). This wouldn’t get rid of all the “unfairness,” but would give a more inviting entry to the sport people just starting out (and not on schoolmasters). I think they would also enjoy the comradery of showing alongside other beginners who they could relate to.
1 Like
This is where instead of rewarding knees lifting, but rewarding the hocks coming under more, the lift in movement, etc., makes things more fair. My gelding DID develop about 2 points in his gait quality, and my mare has improved similarly in both canter and walk, with trot only having improved about 1 point so far.
My trainer has some VERY nice horses, but if they are incorrect due to tension or something, so far they have gotten knocked in scoring and we’ve actually been pleased with that. Where their natural tendency to travel uphill and have supple bodies makes development and use of the movements is tied to the fact they have naturally good gaits, they will still fall on the forehand and get tight in the back (and totally unsittable) if too tense or just flat out having a bad day as sometimes happens at shows.
This wasn’t part of L training, it was just an L candidate who asked the question. This horse was quite downhill, not level. Very behind the vertical, and not stepping underneath - hocks were trailing. Naturally flashy, but naturally also very incorrect. The owner has since really worked to fix that, but I even suspect the scoring rewarding that incorrect movement gave the owner a wrong impression which was detrimental to the horse’s training, I know I try to take judge feedback as indication of how my training is going, so would assume this rider did as well. That is, however, an assumption.
Well, there’s two separate questions here.
Are basic scoring criteria correct or do they give too much emphasis to naturally big gaits?
Does the competition system ultimately reward those with more time and money to spend on training?
You could alter the scoring any which way you liked, but it wouldn’t affect the fact that those with more money and time are going to start with horses better suited to the sport and buy the training they need. If out of balance big gaits were penalized they’d quickly learn to ride balanced big gaits. They wouldn’t suddenly start losing to a paint or fjord 
And not all those rich ammies succeed it’s important to remember! Lots of folks buy $60,000 “made” horses and never get out of first level or come off get hurt and sell. Even with all the time and money and trainer support in the world you need aptitude and the drive to get really proficient at any riding discipline
The only way you could control for cash spent is to means test the owners and riders, or maybe their training bills.
In ring one, the homeschooled schlubs whose owners make less than $60,000 a year. In ring two the top ten percent. In ring three the one percent behind a security cordon. With real diamonds on their helmets.
4 Likes
Love your idea
Leveling, breed classes, and novice classes all seem like great ideas, however, having come from stock horse world, none of those things are working. It’s a hot topic right now on a different forum. I don’t know if it’s ironic or sad that all areas (it seems) are facing the same issues.
I don’t have any better ideas other than coming to dressage where my horse and I can best ourselves. Fairness can differ between people, but truly, the only ‘like for like’ happening is people riding horses. Someone will always figure out a way to stay where they’re winning, someone will always have more money, a better horse, etc. Sorry if I’m overlooking other points. The word ‘leveling’ makes my insides twitch a bit…
1 Like
Maybe you think that only those YR showing FEI classes are worthy of recognition, but I disagree. The kid who just learned to canter is worthy of recognition. The kid who battled nerves to trot down centerline deserves recognition. (And, so are the amateurs, for that matter.)
Some people want that ribbon because it represents all of the hard work they put in to get there, not just because they want a pretty ribbon.
Yes, our kids (and some adults) need to learn that not everyone wins, but sometimes a little encouragement is appreciated.
(This is NOT an endorsement of splitting small classes - I personally hate winning a class of one. I just don’t like saying that if you ride at FEI you’re more worthy (better) than someone at TL. And, the levels are there to help us train our horses, so just because someone is at TL doesn’t mean they’re not on a path to GP.)
2 Likes
This is quite true. That is why, as you move up the levels, the difference in raw talent becomes less apparent in the scoring. Unfortunately, for those entering the sport who are in the intro - 1st levels, the score differential is vast. The fancy, talented horse can have major mistakes and still beat the steady Eddy doing his thing as best he can. And then the powers that be wonder how to get more grass roots, small potato support. Hmmm go figure…
3 Likes
yes, there are Oppritunity classes, though they are not exactly the same as this idea…there is no checking of prior scores.
The point is to encourage new members/beginners to show dressage- they do not have to pay the same fees.
they are given separate ribbons and scores
We actually DO have the income brackets represented as shows.
Schooling shows cater to the 70k and less.
Local rated shows are for the 70k to 100k-ish,
Regionals, Nationals, Devon, Wellington, etc are all shows for the rich. You can’t participate if your disposable income is not in the tens of thousands (or your backer are rich).
I don’t like that I’m priced out of pretty much everything except schooling shows, but that’s life.
The trend toward flashy movers means a lot of the basics can be covered up for a long time. It’s not until you need those basics for the more upper level work that you suddenly realize why it was so important. A lot of those owners either never get to the level where you realize what’s missing, or they hand over the horse for the trainer to train up (why even own the horse then?)
What I’m saying is that a lot of these ammys paying out the nose for $20k on up horses could learn a lot more, and become better riders, if they had taken an average, low cost, mover up the levels first. Even if you don’t win a ribbon, the experience is invaluable.
Frankly, i blame the trainers for a great deal of the ammys desire to have the $25k+ purpose bred, big mover they can’t sit. Too many crappy trainers blaming the horses for their lack of ability to teach the rider. I’ve seen great trainers, teaching ammys on some extremely average TBs, turn their students into high quality riders who can pull the brilliance out of their horses (and win at big shows).
Imo, trainers who encourage their students to purchase purpose bred warmbloods in order to win at local rated shows (or worse, schooling shows) are the real issue. It’s not that people have money and want to win. It’s that we, as a dressage community, have allowed crappy trainers to influence such a massive segment of our beginners and ammys for so long.
And, I’m kind of tired of having yet another over-horsed adult ammy ask me to ride their drop dead gorgeous moving, purpose-bred warmblood, that’s getting mid 60’s at 2nd level, only to sit on it and realize it has no concept of an outside rein.
1 Like
The basics are needed both for the nice and ordinary gaited horse. Some rider will want their trainer to improve their horse.
That’s one of a trainer’s job.
What I’m saying is that a lot of these ammys paying out the nose for $20k on up horses could learn a lot more, and become better riders, if they had taken an average, low cost, mover up the levels first. Even if you don’t win a ribbon, the experience is invaluable.
I don’t believe that at all.
Riders don’t get better by riding crappier horses.
It would be way better if beginners could have access to good schoolmasters, and those aren’t cheap.
Frankly, i blame the trainers for a great deal of the ammys desire to have the $25k+ purpose bred, big mover they can’t sit. Too many crappy trainers blaming the horses for their lack of ability to teach the rider. I’ve seen great trainers, teaching ammys on some extremely average TBs, turn their students into high quality riders who can pull the brilliance out of their horses (and win at big shows).
Imo, trainers who encourage their students to purchase purpose bred warmbloods in order to win at local rated shows (or worse, schooling shows) are the real issue. It’s not that people have money and want to win. It’s that we, as a dressage community, have allowed crappy trainers to influence such a massive segment of our beginners and ammys for so long.
And, I’m kind of tired of having yet another over-horsed adult ammy ask me to ride their drop dead gorgeous moving, purpose-bred warmblood, that’s getting mid 60’s at 2nd level, only to sit on it and realize it has no concept of an outside rein.
And yet, it gives you a job.
Shouldn’t you be happy about it?
You get to train really nice dressage horses and bepaid for it.
(If the Ammies are getting mid60s at 2d level, they’re hardly over horsed…)
3 Likes
