spin-off: Leveling the Playing Field in Dressage

[SnicklefritzG]

There is a lot of truth in what Core6430 is saying. A horse with fancy gaits will come in the ring with a potential for higher scores. A rider on a horse with a gait score of 8 is going to be at an advantage over a rider on a horse who might score 7 or 6 on gaits. Make a small mistake on a horse with a gait score of 8 and that person might still score better than a rider who is on a 6 or 7 mover who rides correctly.

A horse that doesn’t score as well as a fancy mover isn’t necessarily a “crappy horse”. It might just not be purpose bred for dressage.

I also think there IS a definitely issue with trainers who advise their clients to buy horses that end up being “too much horse” for them, such that the trainer needs to put in a lot of training rides. I know several people personally who ended up in that situation, i.e. letting themselves getting talked into a certain horse being perfect for them to progress, but then they can’t ride it! Clients who want to ride and improve need an appropriate horse, not a horse who ends up being a power grab for the trainer. If someone wants to buy a horse specifically for a trainer to ride, that is fine, as long as that is what the client wants.

Also, Core’s comments are also supported by the fact that there are rider tests at each level, something that focuses more on the rider’s ability to get the job done more so than the horse’s gaits.

@alibi_18

The basics are needed both for the nice and ordinary gaited horse. Some rider will want their trainer to improve their horse.
That’s one of a trainer’s job.

I don’t believe that at all.
Riders don’t get better by riding crappier horses.
It would be way better if beginners could have access to good schoolmasters, and those aren’t cheap.

And yet, it gives you a job.
Shouldn’t you be happy about it?
You get to train really nice dressage horses and bepaid for it.
(If the Ammies are getting mid60s at 2d level, they’re hardly over horsed…)

[MysticOakRanch]

@SnicklefritzG

A horse that doesn’t score as well as a fancy mover isn’t necessarily a “crappy horse”. It might just not be purpose bred for dressage.

Or it is purpose bred, but didn’t inherit big gaits (there are plenty of Warmbloods out there that are NOT very fancy), OR it has fancy gaits, but has been so poorly ridden backwards that we can’t tell anymore… And the problem is - the judges don’t know if the gaits are “restricted” because of the rider or because that is the best the horse can do…

[pluvinel]

@SnicklefritzG

…

…there are rider tests at each level, something that focuses more on the rider’s ability to get the job done more so than the horse’s gaits.

Well…if dressage were actually a test of the horse’s TRAINING, then we would not need a separate test for rider ability.

We all know judges, trainers who have leased a trained schoolmaster to get qualifying scores. Does that automatically mean that the rider getting good scores on a schoolmaster is a good rider?

Or is a rider test on a schoolmaster just showing that a rider can steer the trained horse thru its paces?

What does being getting a good rider score imply about the rider’s ability to “train” the horse?

[SnicklefritzG]

Also, to people that are saying it is better to just go out and get a schoolmaster, that isn’t necessarily the best way to progress. It depends on the rider’s level and that of the schoolmaster.

There was an excellent article written a number of years ago by Diane Rodich where she says that people starting out in dressage would do better to get a mid level schoolmaster first to learn the basics because an FEI schoolmaster has so many buttons that it might not be as forgiving a ride to a newcomer.

[SnicklefritzG]

That’s why I think people should just do what makes them happy even if that means they are competed solely against themselves.

“good” is relative. Some people are good at riding tests, but not in training a horse. Some people are good at polishing a horse off to take it from PSG to GP. Others are best at starting young horses and then handing the reins over to someone else.

As I mentioned previously, at least in dressage people get a scoresheet and can compete against themself.

@pluvinel

Well…if dressage were actually a test of the horse’s TRAINING, then we would not need a separate test for rider ability.

We all know judges, trainers who have leased a trained schoolmaster to get qualifying scores. Does that automatically mean that the rider getting good scores on a schoolmaster is a good rider?

Or is a rider test on a schoolmaster just showing that a rider can steer the trained horse thru its paces?

What does being getting a good rider score imply about the rider’s ability to “train” the horse?

[exvet]

This issue has been debated on this board for decades and likely will continue. I think those of us who ride and ‘do’ dressage have to determine what our goals are both for ourselves and for our mounts. We utilize dressage to improve both our riding and the horse’s way of going. If you want to compete then it’s up to the individual whether or not based on their skill and their horse’s gaits how they’re going to utilize the experience - is it to test progress of the horse or the rider and if so how are they going to measure it? - compare scores to previous scores? focus on improvement of specific movements? improvement of the rider score? improvement of the gaits score? etc. It’s not going to be the same for everyone and it shouldn’t be. I will admit I like to compete and big pretty blue and red ribbons make me smile a long with positive comments and decent scores; but, at the end of the day it’s the appearance and attitude of the horse along with his/her way of going - is the muscling the way it should be? are the gaits improving and comfortable to ride (this is a personal issue/fancy doesn’t do it for me) and is the horse progressing all the while staying sound? If the answer is yes to all of those questions then I’m able to put the scores and judges comments into proper perspective and not waste time worrying about a playing field that will never be level. I try to spend my time and energy on what I can control, not on what I can’t. I also ride what I love and love what I ride. Fortunately for me what I love to ride falls well within my budget; so to that end, I’m afraid I will always be competing against myself or a ‘standard’. I’m okay with that.

[mvp]

@Equibrit

This is all very silly. There will never be a level playing field in any human or natural pursuit. IT JUST AIN’T THE WAY LIFE HAPPENS. Live with it, and be happy that you don’t get eaten because you are inferior.

I think that laissez-faire philosophy won’t please most of the people, most of the time.

Look, this is a made up, hobby sport. It can go any way it’s participants and consumers would like-- fair or unfair. If that’s true, why would anyone pay to play where things were not fair, at least to some degree that satisfied them. If you get the long end of the proverbial stick often enough or if you don’t but don’t care, that’s one thing. But I think it would be unreasonable to ask the person who asks for a level playing field before she puts her time money and effort into the sport to be similarly cavalier about it.

[alibi_18]

@mvp

I think that laissez-faire philosophy won’t please most of the people, most of the time.

Look, this is a made up, hobby sport. It can go any way it’s participants and consumers would like-- fair or unfair. If that’s true, why would anyone pay to play where things were not fair, at least to some degree that satisfied them. If you get the long end of the proverbial stick often enough or if you don’t but don’t care, that’s one thing. But I think it would be unreasonable to ask the person who asks for a level playing field before she puts her time money and effort into the sport to be similarly cavalier about it.

It’s not a « laissez faire » philosophy, it’s life.

Level playing field… that would also mean people with talent should be in different classes?

Two riders; Same horse, same trainer, same money, same goals, same riding schedule… What if a rider as more talent? That’s unfair if it always perform better no matter what the other rider do? They should win too because they’ve put their money and their sweat into it?
Should everyone get a ribbon for their effort?

A « friend » of mine told me once (she owns a nice 25k Holsteiner dressage bred, young and stylish) that at the price she pays her lessons/coaching at the show, she should be winning. She was serious.
And in a sense, I do understand her.
But on the other hand… WTF?!? Really?
(She scored in the mid60’s)

Also I don’t believe about riders who just « pilot » their schoolmasters around…even at the lower levels, If they get good scores, it’s on them. They can ride that horse at that level. Can they ride every horse at that level? Maybe not. Can they train horses up to that level? Maybe not. But who cares? There really is no need to belittle people who are succeeding and diminish their accomplishment. If you (general) feel the need to critize their endeavour, it sounds more like sour grapes to me.

[Equibrit]

@mvp

I think that laissez-faire philosophy won’t please most of the people, most of the time.

Probably not - but that is the way life proceeds. There is always a better rider/horse/trainer/breeder/wallet/- the list goes on. Stop those from competing and you lose everything that gets better when involved in sport. However - you could also have classes for “losers”, but why would they compete ?

Those whom you perceive to be disadvantaged must do the very best with what they have and be proud when they achieve realistic goals. The only problem with that, it appears. is that you may not get a ribbon.

[Core6430]

@alibi_18

And yet, it gives you a job.
Shouldn’t you be happy about it?
You get to train really nice dressage horses and bepaid for it.

You seem to have skewed my meaning to fit your narrative. I think others understood well enough.

I’m NOT a trainer. I get asked to ride because I’m good. I do it for free (so as not to lose my ammy status, although not sure why I care about that). So yeah, it BOTHERS me greatly that these awesome, talented horses are face ridden and tamped down into almost jog trots so their riders aren’t bounced out of the tack. The riders needed horses they can actually RIDE.

Most ammy’s don’t need a better horse. They need a better trainer.

Plus, these ammy’s aren’t buying schoolmasters, they’re buying greenbeans, because they don’t have the money for a more trained warmblood. They needed a nice, quiet, well-trained 3rd-4th level, average, QH or TB for $15k, not the 4 year old for $15k. But what direction are the trainers pushing their students? Yup. 4 year old, green broke, big movers.

If you don’t believe me about really learning how to train a horse by riding average horses, then read Jeremy Steinbergs article about it:
https://www.dressagetalk.com/single-post/Jeremy-Steinberg-How-Average-Horses-Mold-Great-Riders

Again, can’t tell you how often I hear trainers telling an average rider that it’s her average horse that’s preventing the rider from moving past First level. There’s usually nothing wrong with the horse that a good trainer couldn’t fix. We just seem to have a great number of trainers who can’t train an average horse.

[exvet]

@Core6430

Again, can’t tell you how often I hear trainers telling an average rider that it’s her average horse that’s preventing the rider from moving past First level. There’s usually nothing wrong with the horse that a good trainer couldn’t fix. We just seem to have a great number of trainers who can’t train an average horse.

I agree with you for the most part and you sum up a lot of what I’ve seen over the years as well. It’s not just the issue of a trainer’s capabilities training horses it’s also their ability to teach riders and influence them to push themselves as hard or harder than the horse. Neither are easy. I think that many people who train and/or teach are capable for a certain type - a certain type of horse and a certain type of rider. There are few, though they do exist, who have a broad range of skills that adapt to all walks of life be it beast or person. I agree that the onus is on the rider for improving and achieving their goals and what’s holding most back isn’t the horse. I’m not sure I agree that all or even the majority need a better trainer. What I see that most need are more realistic expectations and a willingness to actually work on themselves - put more sweat equity into improving their fitness, their ability to feel and react, their flexibility, etc which doesn’t mean throw more money at it; but, it usually does mean throwing more time, commitment and a willingness to accept some of the pain tat comes with it too. I see decent riding instructors/trainers who provide correct instruction, it’s just the audience doesn’t seem to embrace it or are challenged to apply it and effect change.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Core6430

Plus, these ammy’s aren’t buying schoolmasters, they’re buying greenbeans, because they don’t have the money for a more trained warmblood. They needed a nice, quiet, well-trained 3rd-4th level, average, QH or TB for $15k, not the 4 year old for $15k. But what direction are the trainers pushing their students? Yup. 4 year old, green broke, big movers.

.

Where are these nice quiet, well trained 3rd/4th level horses for $15k? That aren’t old and decrepit? Most people buy a young horse because there aren’t too many decent quality horses (that are under 18 years old) in that price range. Unless they are young and green.

I’m not disagreeing with the concept of your post - I think most riders would do well to buy less movement and more training - but it is HARD to find anything 3rd/4th level for under $30k - and that is not a fancy horse at that price tag. I don’t know about everyone here, but I sure couldn’t afford to buy anything in that price range - my CAR didn’t even cost that much!

And - full training, which is what a rider really needs to learn anything and keep their horse going well - is a freaking house payment! One lesson a week is a car payment each month. This is not a cheap sport. And many of us are trying to “do it” on a budget… There in lies part of the problem.

And - the fancy gaits thing has made it an even more expensive sport. When I first started in dressage (I’m old), most of us were on Tbreds, Morgans, Arabs, regular horses. In the 90s, I was on a Morgan - I paid $2k for him. In today’s dollars, that is what, $8k? We placed in most shows, won high point awards, and were Top Ten at the state championships. We weren’t headed to the Olympics, but we were regionally competitive. I took a lesson a week back then. Having a horse in “full training” was not the norm. Now, most who compete are in full training, coached at the shows, and have horses that cost as much as a luxury vehicle (or a small house!). The sport was an “every man’s sport” in the 80s and 90s. Not so much anymore.

Fancy gaits earned you a few extra points in the collective score, Gaits. And in the trot lengthenings and medium/extended trots. It wasn’t a HUGE advantage.

So, if TPTB are wondering how to attract more people to the sport? The sport is going the wrong direction to attract more people. It is becoming more and more a $$$ sport. That isn’t how you attract more people.

[Equibrit]

Y’all probably need to read this; http://eventingnation.com/you-want-to-hold-a-what-the-story-behind-the-southeast-schooling-show-championships/

[Highflyer]

@Equibrit

Y’all probably need to read this; http://eventingnation.com/you-want-to-hold-a-what-the-story-behind-the-southeast-schooling-show-championships/

I don’t know, my GMO has a really nice championship dressage and CT show every year, and we get tons of really nice prizes, giant ribbons, embroidered jacket if you win a championship class, etc (and split AA/ jr/open, too) And while the overall attendance is good for the non championship classes, the championship classes are tiny. And it’s really easy to qualify (although you do have to be a member.)

[MysticOakRanch]

@Equibrit

Y’all probably need to read this; http://eventingnation.com/you-want-to-hold-a-what-the-story-behind-the-southeast-schooling-show-championships/

We have a dressage barn in the region that holds a schooling show series (I think it is 6 shows), and they do a high point championship with some cool prizes. You have to show at THREE of the schooling shows to qualify. They also do high point (Open, AA, Jr/YR) at each show. The shows are CRAZY busy, they usually end up having to run a second ring for part of the day to accomodate everyone. There is a demand for affordable shows.

We also see more and more Western Dressage competitors at many of the local schooling shows. Non-fancy horses with a competitive outlet!

[JLR1]

@exvet

but, at the end of the day it’s the appearance and attitude of the horse along with his/her way of going - is the muscling the way it should be? are the gaits improving and comfortable to ride (this is a personal issue/fancy doesn’t do it for me) and is the horse progressing all the while staying sound? If the answer is yes to all of those questions then I’m able to put the scores and judges comments into proper perspective and not waste time worrying about a playing field that will never be level. I try to spend my time and energy on what I can control, not on what I can’t. I also ride what I love and love what I ride. Fortunately for me what I love to ride falls well within my budget; so to that end, I’m afraid I will always be competing against myself or a ‘standard’. I’m okay with that.

I couldn’t agree more, and quite honestly feel THIS is the only thing that really matters:)

[xQHDQ]

@OverandOnward

“A level playing field” simply means that the conditions and rules are the same for everyone. Not that everyone [or every horse] has equal talent ability. That’s how I’ve understood it.

This. (I added the brackets).

We should not propose any changes that would penalize a talented horse. That’s how breeding gets better for everyone (although it takes more time to trickle down to the lower-priced horses). For example, if you didn’t have the pure bred dogs, all mutts would look the same, and what fun is that?

If a person can afford a nice horse and the training to go with it, good for them. No jealousy, just motivation for me to ride better.

For those of us who ride because of the challenge/reward at meeting goals/love of horses, the way things are, really isn’t bad. We go after the improvement in score from last time, getting a movement nailed down, etc. It’s the ribbon hogs who claim that the system is rigged.

[MysticOakRanch]

@xQHDQ

We should not propose any changes that would penalize a talented horse.

I wouldn’t penalize a talented horse - I would just not put SO MUCH emphasis on one aspect (gait quality), and put more emphasis on quality of the overall work/training. The changes in dressage judging have occurred in recent history - and are most likely marketing oriented, to drive up the prices of the fancy moving Warmbloods that come out of northern Europe. A talented horse and talented rider still have the advantage if we put less emphasis on gaits, and more emphasis on training.

[pluvinel]

@MysticOakRanch

I wouldn’t penalize a talented horse - I would just not put SO MUCH emphasis on one aspect (gait quality), and put more emphasis on quality of the overall work/training. The changes in dressage judging have occurred in recent history - and are most likely marketing oriented, to drive up the prices of the fancy moving Warmbloods that come out of northern Europe. A talented horse and talented rider still have the advantage if we put less emphasis on gaits, and more emphasis on training.

I would agree with this…especially if TPTB want to encourage more participants in dressage…which is probably why Western Dressage is taking off.

I read a paper by MIchael Holmstrom, Swedish vet, who said the “bling trot” (my paraphrase) was the gait that got the seller big bucks…but that the canter showed the horse’s true abilities.

[Gestalt]

@pluvinel

I would agree with this…especially if TPTB want to encourage more participants in dressage…which is probably why Western Dressage is taking off.

I read a paper by MIchael Holmstrom, Swedish vet, who said the “bling trot” (my paraphrase) was the gait that got the seller big bucks…but that the canter showed the horse’s true abilities.

When western dressage first came to my area I was thinking why on earth do we need another form for showing. But I see the attraction now, I wonder how many years it will take before this form gets tainted by money.