Spin-off of the spin-off: let’s talk “pain face”

[fivestrideline]

Since starting the other KS spin-off thread I’ve been really paying attention to the horses’ faces and expressions. Yes, mostly I’ve been focusing on my ulcer/KS/attitude issue Problem Child, but I’m also comparing him to the others. I’d love to hear thoughts and opinions or experiences with “pain face” vs “normal range of horse expressions”. Some horses I think just have the “worried” look to them, but I’m still trying to discern what’s normal and what’s a sign to look closer.

For example, I’ve noticed that with the exception of when he’s getting bodywork done, Problem Child NEVER has a droopy lip, always a firm/tight nostril, lips always firmly pressed together, always a little peak/wrinkle to the top of his eye. I’m not exactly sure I put too much stock in the “tension lines” some people point out on the face, but he definitely has some lines running from his eye down to his nostril.

In comparison, for example my jumper always had a big, sleepy eye and droopy lip. He was just a big laid back teddy bear by nature. I FEEL as if Problem Child used to be pretty chill and relaxed, and while I wouldn’t call him hot or spooky, he’s definitely not “chill” and certainly has a lot of anger/anxiety in there.

What do y’all think about “pain face”? What is pain face to you, and when does it indicate you may need to pay closer attention vs try not to get dragged into the Woo Woo Keyboard Warrior Brigade?

[Djones]

Tight jaws, clenched muzzle, pursed sort of face ears a little “tight” meaning just a little back in a tense way, not floppy/chill.

I look back at photos of my last qh and see so much I didn’t see in person in body tension. But his face was chill. I think it’s imperfect as an overall indicator.

[fivestrideline]

Definitely, it’s just a piece of the puzzle of course. I think it comes into play more for those of us trying to gauge the comfort level of a horse not able to work.

[Djones]

Oh i get it for sure. I’ve been in horses 40 of my 52 years

I take a ton of pictures so I can see trends in body position, posture, demeanor. Add to this, a lot of time just watching said horse loose in a pasture. How does he move? When and how does he rest? All of it matters including the face.

[IPEsq]

In a horse that is just standing around (versus facial expressions being ridden), there is a lot of overlap between “stress” signals and “pain” expression. Neither things are ideal for a pasture puff if they are persistent because both scenarios say something about the QOL, but it can be hard to determine which is which.

[stargzng386]

This is the best pic I could find when I was trying to ride my guy and he was in pain. Working with a vet at the time. The eye wrinkle is the easiest to see. Also going through all of the photos his posture was different, ears back more, just not really standing square trying to stand oddly to relieve soreness.

This is him this past weekend much happier retired with zero working life at 7 .

[AmmyHour926]

@IPEsq

there is a lot of overlap between “stress” signals and “pain” expression.

If I recall correctly the OG study that used an artificial stimulate to induce pain and study the phases (I think it was some sort of skin irritant that was used) even disclosed that they can’t really determine the difference between stress and pain faces. I think the conclusion there is some horses in stress also have pain, but probably all horses in pain have stress.

Anyways long way to say I kind of treat the expressions as one in the same. But the easiest thing I can usually notice is the tight/ worried eye and ears set super base wide.

Also not just the face but I pay a lot of attention to the tail, how it’s carried or if it’s overly active or rigid when ridden.

[sascha]

My personal horse’s pain face is very easily discernible anger. A person doesn’t even need to know her to see it. “She looks very angry!” “Uh oh, something must be wrong!” And always something - corneal ulcer in the eye blocked by the way she was standing, hoof abscess, something acute and new that day.

Gut ulcer face is different though, not angry - more loopy/crazy/wound up.

Long term pain - depression. Sad blue face was her entire being during recovery from founder.

[RedHorses]

I started to draw a horse’s portrait for someone earlier this year, and after drawing the eye I had to stop because the pain in that eye shocked me. I didn’t see it in the photo until I had the wrinkles around the eye drawn on paper.

With my own horse, he had a worried eye much of the time. He was the anxious sort. He also had wrinkles above his nostrils that I didn’t realize how significant they’d become until I was looking at a picture from several years ago. The difference in eye and nostrils was significant.

I think you can learn to read your horse’s face by seeing what his face looks like, and then looking at the other factors like how he moves, how his attitude is when asked to do something, etc. Compare everything to what he was like when things were good.

[fivestrideline]

@stargzng386 that’s very similar to my horse’s constant expression. He’s in no work.

@sascha

My personal horse’s pain face is very easily discernible anger.

We “joke” that this gelding identifies as a red pony mare - he’s sharky in the stall and when we walk around him in the cross ties. It’s not really a joke because I swear he wasn’t always like this (a princess, yes. Not angry though).

@AmmyHour926

Also not just the face but I pay a lot of attention to the tail, how it’s carried or if it’s overly active or rigid when ridden.

This is interesting. My bodyworker commented that his tail is jammed - the bottom half of it is inflexible and hard as a rock. Again, it’s all pieces of a puzzle. I think taking lots of pictures and comparing them over time is a fabulous way to track the little things - something I am trying to be better about.

I bring this discussion up because it can be so hard to get a gauge on QOL for the NQR pasture pet. The other thread talked a lot about what counts as “pasture sound”, and plenty of people (including myself) referenced the pain face as part of the picture.

[cnd8]

The worried look in the eye combined with ears back, the tight elongated nostrils with wrinkles. I do believe they are signs of pain. I had a mare eaten up by severe ulcers and she had the nostrils thing going on for sure daily, at all times.

[AmmyHour926]

This thread sounds like a pretty Conscientious and aware group. But from a purely behavior side we(collective) should all be careful not to overly sympathize expressions. Labeling things a worried eye vs an ulcer eye vs a stressed eye. I think we are all referring to the same eyebrow peak and tightening and that is a documented sign of discomfort. I say discomfort cause I do think it’s a spectrum from “I don’t like what’s happening in the woods next to my field” to “I’m having acute laminitis pain”.

Some horses seem more prone to show this expression than others, but once you start seeing it it’s so hard to unsee!

[Obsidian_Fire]

@fivestrideline

What is pain face to you, and when does it indicate you may need to pay closer attention

I think it is very individual to each animal and each circumstance, much like it is in humans. My own mare has the ‘thousand yard stare’ when she’s uncomfortable/in pain/anticipating pain. Other horses get angry and lash out. Some just shut down and get referred to as “quiet” by those who don’t know any better.
The ‘RBF’ in women? Really? I’d bet in most of us it’s just our ordinary every day neutral/thinking face and means absolutely zip with regards to actually being a B.
Same thing with horses - get to know the individual. Learn what is normal for them. Do your homework - make sure your saddle fits, and all the other things.
Every time a horse reacts ‘negatively’ - don’t assume he’s an a$$hole, but don’t assume it’s pain either. Get to know the individual first.

I think the single hardest thing for us humans is to put aside our bias, our preconceived notions, and observe with an empty and open mind. Horses are individuals too. What’s a thinking concentrating face for one may be dire pain for another.

I’m glad science is putting some study to this. I wish more people - especially ones who’ve ‘been around the block a time or two’ would take heed. OTOH, there certainly will be the other end of the spectrum where ol’ Dobbin is allowed to get away with murder because HE TWITCHED HIS NOSE! IT MUST BE PAIN!

Bottom line for me, know your individual horse. Try to know them without your personal bias. Be their advocate.

I had my mare at the vets one day, trying to figure out WTF was wrong. I had a list of behaviors and such that I’d observed. I’d had her I think going on 2 years? when this cropped up. I just knew, in my gut, something was wrong, very wrong. She was not the horse I bought. My vet just looked at me and said “are you sure this isn’t just a training problem?” – this vet is a bit heavy handed with the horses… I blew a gasket. She backed down in a hurry, and proceeded with diagnostics. Miss maresy did indeed have some pretty severe back pain. At the time, she only injected her back. Which helped, but I wish in hindsight she would have injected the SI also. I also wish she would have used mesotherapy then, but it wasn’t even mentioned.
I guess my point is… try to know your individual horse. Keep an open mind. To the best of your ability, do “all the things” to keep them comfortable - emotionally as well as physically. I think we COTH’rs are pretty good at knowing emotional pain in horses manifests as physical pain (ulcers, for one).

[sascha]

@AmmyHour926

Labeling things a worried eye vs an ulcer eye vs a stressed eye.

I think it depends on how well we know our horses and how much we have observed various expressions that correlate to known issues. For instance, I’ve got 10+ years of daily handling and training on my current horse and she’s had plenty of repeated issues so it’s easy for me to be able to match an expression to a known problem that may be recurring. Oh yay lol

Although I wish we both hadn’t been through so much, that backpack full of knowledge is a great tool I can use to advocate for my horse when something comes up whether it’s a known issue or something new.

[lenapesadie]

I thought about this thread last night as I did bedtime check.

My horse heard me coming and met me at his stall door. He has free access to his stall from his paddock. He presented with a peaked eye wrinkle, a hard eye (not blinking) and an overall tense demeanor. Small spooks at wind noises.

The situation is that it reached 85 F yesterday but was dropping fast (near 50 degree swing in 48 hrs). This charming weather change is accomplished via cold winds blowing out of the North. It was about 60F at bedtime check.

I’ve had this horse for 12 years. We’ve been through similar weather changes together before. What I know is that my horse presents this same “pain face” like clockwork during this type of weather event. What I’ve learned is that my horse didn’t read the flow chart that says healthy horses with a full coat, in good flesh with access to shelter don’t need blankets until we are getting below 50 F. Even with wind chill accounted for we stayed over 50 F all night. My horse doesn’t care. It was toasty warm and then the bottom was falling out of the temperature. 15 mins with his sheet on and his whole demeanor changed. Somehow adding that bit of warmth (comfort) eliminated the spooky response to wind and his facial expressions changed to normal pleasantness.

This thread isn’t about blanketing, but I offer this story to illustrate the difficulty in discerning a worried face from a pain face.

A horse presenting as worried about windy conditions seems “normal”. A horse presenting a pain face over being cold at 60+ F seems questionable. But unless my horse is capable of being worried about being cold in the future, it seems likely the face he presented was a pain face and the spooking was an expression of discomfort as evidenced by a sheet being the cure.

[fivestrideline]

Yeah “worried” vs “pain” isn’t a huge distinction for me. “Discomfort” face is maybe better in these situations

[lenapesadie]

Agreed. Even “unhappy”.

[Lunabear1988]

I think pain face is best assessed in person or in a wide array of photos, multiple different situations. I think owners are probably the best to assess this.

I’ve noticed that when my horse is doing something like hanging out and eating, he doesn’t have pain face. But it seems as soon as you start doing any groundwork, pain face. Oddly, sometimes I think he looks best under saddle, But maybe that’s because he generally tried under saddle. Some people used to tell me that he looked happy when I rode him. But I also had a body worker tell me that he looked miserable so it might be in the eye of the beholder!

With my trigeminal nerve pain horse, this was before pain face is really talked about, but I used to always say that it looked like he had a headache. Now I know this to be pain face…

I do think stress and maybe even tough concentration can probably elicit the face so that’s why I said it’s best assessed with a very wide view of many situations, imo.

[sascha]

I know that look well. I swear mine rolls her eyes when I finally get smart and cover her up, like, “Finally, you numpty, can you not feel the chill? Are you stupid?”

[GoodTimes]

I agree that it’s part of the puzzle and best if someone who knows the horse can assess.

Thursday evening I showed up at the barn to find my gelding out in the field with his left eye swollen shut. It obviously hurt, but no sign of “pain face” other than the swelling and him holding his eye shut. But his entire demeaner was dejected, feeling sorry for himself. Still happy to eat his dinner though. But once meds were on board his ear position went back to normal and he was more interested in his environment.
I’ve owned this horse since he was a yearling, he’s now 14yo. The most obvious pain/discomfort face that he has exhibited was during his asthma attacks. I wouldn’t say he was in pain, but some worry and panic is to be expected when you’re having difficulty breathing.

My mom’s gelding on the other hand has a very expressive face. It can be difficult to discern spooky/worried from pain with him. He’s twenty now and it’s good for him to move around. But we like him to come in and chill for at least a few hours in his stall because it’s the only time he’ll truly settle and relax. That’s when we can check for him resting a leg, the droopy lip, having a nap, etc. Outside he’s happy, but very alert. And a bit of a princess when it comes to weather and flies.