Spin Off- When Does a Dog Breed Become a Breed

[MsM]

Establishing a new breed is not simple! Especially if the contributing breeds are considerably different. The “Doodles” are not breeds but many are a reliable cross. You tend to know what you will get with a Lab X Poodle. But breed those crosses and you get genetic scatter - some pups look like one breed or the other or like the cross. In a breed, the dogs need to breed true. I have heard that some are trying to develop that cross as a breed by culling and continuing on for generations. But most doodles are a F1 cross as that is easiest.

I once had the daughter of a Cockapoo and a Cocker. She looked like a refined cocker and was a wonderful dog. Her littermate was owned by a friend and was twice the size with a curly, endlessly growing coat.

[S1969]

@MsM

Establishing a new breed is not simple! Especially if the contributing breeds are considerably different. The “Doodles” are not breeds but many are a reliable cross. You tend to know what you will get with a Lab X Poodle. But breed those crosses and you get genetic scatter - some pups look like one breed or the other or like the cross. In a breed, the dogs need to breed true. I have heard that some are trying to develop that cross as a breed by culling and continuing on for generations. But most doodles are a F1 cross as that is easiest.

Well, it’s easy but I don’t really agree that you know what you’ll get - my co-worker got a “discount” Goldendoodle because it doesn’t have any curl to its coat. It just looks like a small Golden (it was a mini Golden doodle…ugh.) And that doesn’t even get into the rest of the conformation which is all over the place. (It actually looks like a small Toller…which is what I thought it was.)

All breed development involves “culling” - but that doesn’t have to mean that they kill the ones that don’t carry the traits they want. They just don’t get bred. The problem is you need a market for the culls, which isn’t easy.

[MsM]

Yeah one of the problems with designer crosses is that many, perhaps most, of those producing them are not careful responsible breeders. So in addition to not health testing, they also breed poor examples of the breeds. Sometimes you get the worst of both breeds. (And I have seen some that I suspect were not from the breeds claimed)

It is interesting that some crosses are more predictable than others.Possibly because they share more characteristics. The lab X poodle crosses seem pretty similar if parents are decent. What I have seen is that the hair varied but was always something between that of the parents. I often wonder why people don’t just get a good Standard Poodle. There are some great ones out there!

[S1969]

@MsM

It is interesting that some crosses are more predictable than others.Possibly because they share more characteristics. The lab X poodle crosses seem pretty similar if parents are decent. What I have seen is that the hair varied but was always something between that of the parents. I often wonder why people don’t just get a good Standard Poodle. There are some great ones out there!

I don’t know that I would consider them “pretty similar”. Check this breeder website (if COTH will let me post the link) - 3 different coat types (wool coat, hair coat, and fleece coat), and to be honest, even without a body shot, I don’t think most of these dogs look very similar even discounting the coat types. https://www.labradoodlesuk.com/history-f-word-coat-types

Ah well, the more I look at that site, the more it looks like a puppy mill. So, the fact that the breeding dogs don’t look similar is apparently unimportant. And they are using a Cock a Poo in the breeding as well.

[MsM]

Interesting! I have not seen some of those coat types IRL. I agree that their choice of breeding animals is questionable with no mention of any health testing. At least they are honest about the variability they are producing.

[Houndhill]

I don’t think anyone has yet brought up the Lurcher. This is neither a breed, nor a particular cross of breeds, but is a “type” of crossbreed that has existed for hundreds of years, bred not for the pet market, but for a particular hunting niche. Originally, this cross of a sighthound (greyhound, whippet, Saluki, borzoi, Irish Wolfhound,Scottish Deerhound most commonly) crossed with a collie breed (border collie or bearded collie most often) or terrier ( most often Bedlington or Staffy Bull) was often used for poaching or other illegal in the UK hunting activities. It was associated with Gypsies although that may not be accurate.

This cross was desired because it combined the predatory speed and desire of the sighthound with the more biddable nature of the sheepdog, I suppose terriers are more biddable than sighthounds, but for sure, sighthounds are always very silent hunters which was desirable in this situation.

Lurchers are still being bred in the UK and in the US- they can be wonderful companions and were some years ago prized by the “horsey set” - think there was one in the Jilly Cooper book “Riders".

But, lurchers are a type, or cross, not a breed. Sometimes the F1s are bred on, to what depends on what is desired as far as hunting.

I must confess a friend friend of mine who breeds top class greyhounds and I did consider an Irish Wolfound x Greyhound cross (A sighthound x sighthound cross is called a Longdog, while a deerhound or Wolfhound x greyhound is called a Staghound). Both the individuals we were thinking of were champions who had passed all their breed health testing, but it was their characters as well as their conformation that tempted us. In the end, we felt that we would each like two puppies from this breeding, but if she had twelve, we weren’t certain we could provide appropriate homes for the puppies.

We have sometimes wished we had gone ahead and done it!

I once went to a Luncher show in Ireland. I had no idea how they might possibly judge such dissimilar looking animals but each pair was quite similar and you could sort of make sense of it.

[Bombproof]

From a scientific standpoint, I would say that a group of dogs becomes a breed when they “breed true.” That is, when you breed two dogs from the same group you predictably get offspring which share the same characteristics as the parents. There’s no real timeline or number of generations for this; it depends upon a lot of factors including how thoroughly you purge the ranks of animals which don’t meet the standard. It’s comparable to Warmblood horses vs. draft crosses. The draft cross may be similar in appearance and performance to a Warmblood but when you breed a draftX to a draftX, you will hardly ever get a horse with the appearance and performance of the parents – the offspring will more likely resemble one of the progenitor breeds or something different altogether. On the other hand, with enough generations of careful breeding (usually to purebreds with the desired characteristics) and culling, you will eventually arrive at a gene pool which breeds true. Historically, this is how virtually all horse and dog breeds were created. Even the vaunted Arabians didn’t spring fully formed from the desert sands. This is what most legitimate breed associations and registries are striving for. From a less technical perspective, I suppose you could say that a group of dogs becomes a breed when the AKC or a similar organization recognizes them as such.

[Houndhill]

@Bombproof

From a scientific standpoint, I would say that a group of dogs becomes a breed when they “breed true.” That is, when you breed two dogs from the same group you predictably get offspring which share the same characteristics as the parents. There’s no real timeline or number of generations for this; it depends upon a lot of factors including how thoroughly you purge the ranks of animals which don’t meet the standard. It’s comparable to Warmblood horses vs. draft crosses. The draft cross may be similar in appearance and performance to a Warmblood but when you breed a draftX to a draftX, you will hardly ever get a horse with the appearance and performance of the parents – the offspring will more likely resemble one of the progenitor breeds or something different altogether. On the other hand, with enough generations of careful breeding (usually to purebreds with the desired characteristics) and culling, you will eventually arrive at a gene pool which breeds true. Historically, this is how virtually all horse and dog breeds were created. Even the vaunted Arabians didn’t spring fully formed from the desert sands. This is what most legitimate breed associations and registries are striving for. From a less technical perspective, I suppose you could say that a group of dogs becomes a breed when the AKC or a similar organization recognizes them as such.

Yes!

I would equate the breeding of lurchers to that of “Draft Cross” in horses- which cross you use (i.e. Clyde, RID, Perch) crossed with something else- usually but not always TB- depends on the specific hunt terrain and local conditions. You usually think of them as F1s but 3/4 TBs are also frequently useful animals for specific purposes. There is no particular desire or need that I am aware of to make this common and useful cross into a “breed” as such, any more than there is any inclination to make a “lurcher” into one homogeneous breed.

i can’t speak to the “Doodle” situation as I am not really familiar with breeding for a primarily pet market. I know that some Service Dog organizations, Canine Companions for Independence, for example, do use deliberate crosses of Lab x Golden Retrievers for some specific functions. These dogs undergo rigorous selection for temperament and health.

[Denali6298]

I knew CoTH would have the answer! Thanks guys! @Houndhill you probably know my friend with Irish Wolfhounds. She’s very involved in VA with the breed.

This has been quite the education.

[Bombproof]

@Houndhill

Yes!

I would equate the breeding of lurchers to that of “Draft Cross” in horses- which cross you use (i.e. Clyde, RID, Perch) crossed with something else- usually but not always TB- depends on the specific hunt terrain and local conditions. You usually think of them as F1s but 3/4 TBs are also frequently useful animals for specific purposes. There is no particular desire or need that I am aware of to make this common and useful cross into a “breed” as such, any more than there is any inclination to make a “lurcher” into one homogeneous breed.

i can’t speak to the “Doodle” situation as I am not really familiar with breeding for a primarily pet market. I know that some Service Dog organizations, Canine Companions for Independence, for example, do use deliberate crosses of Lab x Golden Retrievers for some specific functions. These dogs undergo rigorous selection for temperament and health.

Agreed, but whether horses or dogs, if you breed an F1 cross to a purebred, you can usually predict with reasonable certainty what you’ll get. If you breed back to purebreds for enough generations and cull the offspring who don’t have the desired traits, you can usually get a strain of animals which will breed true. That’s how Warmblood horses and German Shepherd dogs were created. That’s the point at which I consider a group of dogs to be a breed. For Labradoodles to be legitimately a breed, you’d have to breed the F1s to Labs and the F2s to Poodles or vice-versa for a few generations. In each generation you’ll get some dogs which just aren’t what you’re looking for and you cull them. In reality it’s somewhat more complicated than that, but that’s the basic idea.

[Sandysmom]

@anon55755751

@S1969, I wonder how much of the decision to split into varieties (thanks) is just a matter of convention within the breed. I’ve heard, for example, that lab people aren’t too particular about breeding litters of homogeneous color, but with a little googling, it sounds like dachshund breeders tend towards breeding homozygous coats, even though they don’t have to. Maybe conventions for breeding cocker colors are similar, since black is dominant, and (I assume) parti requires modifiers on top of a base color. Shot in the dark on my end.

From a lab breeding friend, you can breed yellows to yellows or black to black but you dont breed chocolate to chocolate. I think it has something to do with chocolate being a dilute color. So its chocolate to yellow or chocolate to black.

Dachshund breeders generally dont do cross coat breeding because it screws up the coat type, however occasionally a breeder will cross a wire and a smooth or smooth with a long. You never, ever, ever cross wire with long.

It’s my understanding that with cocker’s, the different coat colors have different textures which is why they’re separated.

[S1969]

@Sandysmom

It’s my understanding that with cocker’s, the different coat colors have different textures which is why they’re separated.

But the standard states that there is no difference in the breed other than color. So I don’t disagree that there might be a difference in texture (although I would argue that it is probably slight if anything), it shouldn’t be that different or it should be noted in the standard.

It still doesn’t explain why they have 3 entries in the group. I personally think it may have come from a time when cockers (and maybe beagles and dachshunds) were so popular that they pushed to get 3 representations in the group; and people didn’t argue because of the sheer numbers being shown. It could also be because breeders don’t want to mix the lines, but that shouldn’t be enough to get another variety in the group. The group should be the best of each breed, regardless of variety.

My breed comes in 2 colors (orange & white and liver & white, as well as tri color). Some breeders breed for color in addition to other things; no one really breeds “for color” because the color is technically irrelevant. But some breeders prefer orange - which is recessive, so orange x orange = orange. But we would never want (or be granted) two varieties in the sporting group.

I wonder if I can find a cocker spaniel person to ask…

[S1969]

@Bombproof

That’s the point at which I consider a group of dogs to be a breed. For Labradoodles to be legitimately a breed, you’d have to breed the F1s to Labs and the F2s to Poodles or vice-versa for a few generations. In each generation you’ll get some dogs which just aren’t what you’re looking for and you cull them. In reality it’s somewhat more complicated than that, but that’s the basic idea.

Yes. I think there are some doodle breeders that actually do this; and I’m pretty sure one of the doodles has a parent club with a written standard. But there are a lot of cross-breeders out there just breeding F1s to purebreds and selling them for $3K. Which simply baffles me, because most times they are without pedigree, titles, or health testing.

[Houndhill]

@S1969

But the standard states that there is no difference in the breed other than color. So I don’t disagree that there might be a difference in texture (although I would argue that it is probably slight if anything), it shouldn’t be that different or it should be noted in the standard.

It still doesn’t explain why they have 3 entries in the group. I personally think it may have come from a time when cockers (and maybe beagles and dachshunds) were so popular that they pushed to get 3 representations in the group; and people didn’t argue because of the sheer numbers being shown. It could also be because breeders don’t want to mix the lines, but that shouldn’t be enough to get another variety in the group. The group should be the best of each breed, regardless of variety.

My breed comes in 2 colors (orange & white and liver & white, as well as tri color). Some breeders breed for color in addition to other things; no one really breeds “for color” because the color is technically irrelevant. But some breeders prefer orange - which is recessive, so orange x orange = orange. But we would never want (or be granted) two varieties in the sporting group.

I wonder if I can find a cocker spaniel person to ask…

I couldn’t agree more! Too many Cockers in the Group! Pick the best one and send it on to the Group! We only send one Dane, Lab, Poodle, Wolfhound, and so many breeds that come in different colors to the Group, we should send one cocker, regardless of color.