Spinoff: Barefoot trimmers who "don't touch heels"?

[Scribbler]

A few days back I posted a question about how long it takes to fix heels that are running forward. The general response was it should fix in a couple of trims (which was my experience) if there was no underlying or long standing problem.

Now my question is: do all trimmers actually think heels running forward are a problem that needs to be fixed?

My question came from having a look at the feet of a horse whose owner had switched to a new trimmer a few months back. I’m curious about the quality of the new trimmer’s work, so just observing. Horse had heels that were starting to run forward, owner didn’t really know this was a thing and so I didn’t say much.

I was chatting to my own farrier (trained farrier, but only does barefoot trim now) who mentioned that she thought there was a current school of barefoot trimming that advocated never touching the heels, in her words people who learned trimming off the internet :). And that this would lead to under-run heels, but the trimmer might not see them or
realize they are a problem.

Her point was that this was a misunderstanding of how the heels work and how you get healthy heels, which I would agree with given all the examples I’ve seen on COTH and other hoof rehab websites, plus my experience in my vet and farrier reversing this trend quickly in my own horse a few years back.

I’m sure if this is an idea,our local people aren’t inventing it and it is coming from someone’s on-line trimming website, most likely in the USA. I was wondering if anyone had a good idea who the “names” for this would be? So that if I asked a trimmer who they learned from or followed, I would know what that implied? It would also be useful if I decide to take any local clinics on rasping your own horse, etc., as it’s useful to be able to pre-screen.

[tbchick84]

Read any article on barefoot trimming by Pete Ramey. He has very good info complete with illustrations that show why trimming heels is important. If you never trim the heels, they continue to grow higher and higher putting stress on the tendons. Once they get too high to support the horse’s weight, they crush and that’s when you see what looks to be no heel, but is actually very high heels, just crushed and running forward. The heels need to line up with the widest part of the frog to properly support the horse’s weight.

[tinah]

I don’t know, but there’s an “ABC trim” or something like that which advocates “chasing smeared bar” deep into live sole. It’s truly horrifying. I would imagine it’s practiced by the same people.

[luvmyhackney]

My farrier always gives the heels a couple good swipes with a rasp at minimal. If my farrier didn’t I would be finding a new one.

[JB]

It’s a thing that both trimmers and farriers can be guilty of. Hoof care professionals

Yes, some actually think that, and those who do, don’t understand Hoof Function 101.

There IS a time and place to not touch heels, even if they aren’t where they should be. But that’s usually due to some pathologies in the back of the foot that might preclude getting that weight back there right then.

There are some who seem to think that just because some feet will self-heal their heels once you get the toes under control, that they all will, and that is not the case. I’ve done that inadvertently a few times, when I was in a hurry and simply just need to trim one of mine from the top to get the toes back and some flare, fully intending to get to the bottom of the foot the next day or 2. Twice that ended up being 2 weeks :eek: and the heels were in worse shape than when I dressed the top, not better, not even just not worse. I don’t have ANY expectation that simply letting them go even longer would start to have them move back lol

[Scribbler]

@ tbchick, yes I have a Pete Ramey book and am hoping to go to his clinic next summer. I completely agree with you on trimming heels.

[Scribbler]

JB that makes sense as the owner told me the trimmer was addressing the long toe. But owner looked at me blankly when I pointed out the forward run heels, so clearly trimmer never mentioned them to her.

As far as the ABC method I don’t think this fellow is trimming into live sole, more like he isn’t trimming much of anything

[Palm_Beach]

I wouldn’t let anyone near my horses feet unless they were competent at trimming and shoeing. Every farrier needs to be good at trimming. I’m not interested in someone who can’t shoe as well.

[Scribbler]

@Palm Beach

I wouldn’t let anyone near my horses feet unless they were competent at trimming and shoeing. Every farrier needs to be good at trimming. I’m not interested in someone who can’t shoe as well.

I’m not considering hiring this trimmer!

[NancyM]

There is a lot of scary shit available on the internet regarding horses, and there are a lot of gullible people out there looking for a guru to follow and emulate. There are a lot of people out there, who want to be a “guru”, and are looking for desciples to take clinics from them, and to sell video tapes to. Hoof trimming and hoof care learned off the internet is always suspect, as are those who learned to ride and train horses off the internet. Graduates from actual hands on horseshoeing schools… it depends on what school, who taught the course, and how much the student managed to actually learn while in the course. Because these are always variables. The schools themselves may not have the knowledge to be able to tell a skilled farrier from a poor one, and are as much in the dark as many horse owners. Those who didn’t go to school or take a course but learned their trimming and shoeing skills from their dad, also are suspect. In other words, all claims are suspect, until you have taken a look at the work done yourself, and compared that to the knowledge that you have managed to acquire yourself on these subjects. All horsemen need to try to educate themselves to the point that they have an idea about what a healthy foot should look like, and what it takes to keep that foot healthy and sound, even if they can not perform the work themselves and need to hire a practitioner to do that work. Your horse’s health and soundness is dependent on your skill to discern a competent farrier from a poor one.

[Scribbler]

@NancyM

There is a lot of scary shit available on the internet regarding horses, and there are a lot of gullible people out there looking for a guru to follow and emulate. There are a lot of people out there, who want to be a “guru”, and are looking for desciples to take clinics from them, and to sell video tapes to. Hoof trimming and hoof care learned off the internet is always suspect, as are those who learned to ride and train horses off the internet. Graduates from actual hands on horseshoeing schools… it depends on what school, who taught the course, and how much the student managed to actually learn while in the course. Because these are always variables. The schools themselves may not have the knowledge to be able to tell a skilled farrier from a poor one, and are as much in the dark as many horse owners. Those who didn’t go to school or take a course but learned their trimming and shoeing skills from their dad, also are suspect. In other words, all claims are suspect, until you have taken a look at the work done yourself, and compared that to the knowledge that you have managed to acquire yourself on these subjects. All horsemen need to try to educate themselves to the point that they have an idea about what a healthy foot should look like, and what it takes to keep that foot healthy and sound, even if they can not perform the work themselves and need to hire a practitioner to do that work. Your horse’s health and soundness is dependent on your skill to discern a competent farrier from a poor one.

Yes I agree 100 %. I am always amazed when folks who’ve had horses in self care for a number of years and may be decent riders have no idea how to evaluate a foot, or no idea what’s in their feed, or indeed what vaccinations they are getting, etc.

Delegating all attention to feet to the farrier happens both with very conventional shod horses as well as people with barefoot gurus. The difference might be that the barefoot gurus tend to explain and sell what they think they are doing and the clients learn wrong ideas. The conventional farriers are more likely to just do the job and say less. I see some pretty sad shod hooves too.

Follow-up question. If this horse continues to develop run forward heels because the new trimmer doesn’t address them (for whatever reason), when and how will this start e have an impact on how horse works?

[JB]

@Scribbler

Follow-up question. If this horse continues to develop run forward heels because the new trimmer doesn’t address them (for whatever reason), when and how will this start e have an impact on how horse works?

There are lots of other factors that play into that answer for any given horse, including: how long the toes are/continue to be, what type of work the horse does and on what type of footing, the genetic conformation of the foot (ie do those underrun heels grow tall, or do they crush), the length of the pasterns and whether they slope too much or stand up strong, the placement of the leg in relation to the withers, and more.

Even then, a given horse can compensate for years before he starts maybe sticking at that jump, or not turning that barrel as quickly as he should, or has hock arthritis from weight shift compensation, and more.

[ChocoMare]

These are the same trimmers that avoid trimming bars. The hoof is a whole and must be treated / trimmed as a whole.