Spinoff: "Breed the best; ride the rest"

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Hillside H Ranch;7509294]
Well, I have two confirmed, 30+ day pregnancies already, those are Zirocco Blue/Indoctro pregnancies (single embryo transfer flush).

The rest of the plan (always subject to change ):

Contefino to Capitol I/Sacramento Song mare (just bred yesterday, actually)

Mezcalero to Polydor/Peloponnes mare

Zapatero to Animo’s Hallo/Sire de Hotot mare

Larimar to Colander/Alpha D mare

Possibly Quality Time to Narcos II/Landgraf mare?

And then one mare still totally up in the air! The coolest part of this list, for me, is that 5 of the mares listed were Grand Prix jumpers Love my girls!

Have 4 foals on the ground (by Diamant de Semilly, Cardento, VDL Silverstone and Lagoheidor) but 3 more to arrive…so there’s still time to change my mind :)[/QUOTE]

Historically , retired GP jumping mares haven’t made the best broodmares. They were usually sent to sport under the breed the best , ride the rest philosophy.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7509331]
Historically , retired GP jumping mares haven’t made the best broodmares. They were usually sent to sport under the breed the best , ride the rest philosophy.[/QUOTE]

Well, luckily there are enough that break that rule that I don’t mind giving them a try in my program And I have no problem selling the babies, so to each their own!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Hillside H Ranch;7509442]
Well, luckily there are enough that break that rule that I don’t mind giving them a try in my program And I have no problem selling the babies, so to each their own![/QUOTE]

Yeah , I’ve noticed. They are advertised for sale as soon as the 2 week pregnancy scan is complete.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7509802]
Yeah , I’ve noticed. They are advertised for sale as soon as the 2 week pregnancy scan is complete.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I think you might have me mistaken for someone else:) I no longer even publicly announce my pregnancies until they are at least 30 days along, and I don’t advertise in-uteros until the summer or fall…but not all are offered for sale

[omare]

I am sure that is true for holsteiner breeders but seems less true for others breeds and an overly broad statement to make. Certainly there are enough examples of top performance mares producing top sport horses. (Stella comes to mind.) The biggest problem is they are so late usually getting to the breeding shed. Statistically I am pretty sure it has been shown the better black type race mares are shown to be the producers of the better horses than their less successful sisters but they have the advantage of being retired before a show mare even starts its career. Yes I know the genuine risks did not shine but as a rule the better stakes winning mare will produce a better racehorse than the non winner.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=omare;7509904]
I am sure that is true for holsteiner breeders but seems less true for others breeds and an overly broad statement to make. Certainly there are enough examples of top performance mares producing top sport horses. (Stella comes to mind.) The biggest problem is they are so late usually getting to the breeding shed. Statistically I am pretty sure it has been shown the better black type race mares are shown to be the producers of the better horses than their less successful sisters but they have the advantage of being retired before a show mare even starts its career. Yes I know the genuine risks did not shine but as a rule the better stakes winning mare will produce a better racehorse than the non winner.[/QUOTE]

I used to believe the adage of “breed the best, ride the rest”, as that is what I was taught by several breeders that I truly respect. But in the last year or two I’ve really noticed that there are some extremely successful upper-level jumpers whose dams had their own sport careers. Now that it is something I’m digging in to, the list just keeps growing. Off the top of my head, there’s Kannan’s dam, who jumped up to 1.30m, I believe (granted, not Grand Prix). Zirocco Blue’s dam jumped to 1.50m and both his grand dam and great grand dam jumped 1.40 m. There’s Big Star’s dam who jumped up to 1.30m (I think), Eurocommerce London’s dam jumped 1.60m, and of course Quidam de Revel’s dam jumped in several Nation’s Cups. I’m not nearly as familiar with Holsteiners as Reece is, but Cartani just caught my eye and his dam Taggi had a great career and I think jumped in the Barcelona Olympics. I have actually started keeping a list as I come across horses from performing dams, but I’m not actually at home where my list is (I’m a nerd like that, for sure:)). I do know that there are tons of top horses whose dams certainly never even saw a saddle, but there are enough at the opposite end of the spectrum that I don’t believe it to just be a fluke. The great thing about breeding, though, is that different philosophies can produce equally successful horses. Just look to the registries to see how varying successful breeding philosophies can be, much less the differences between individual breeders!

[Bayhawk]

It’s the job of the breeder to breed athletes. It’s also the job of the breeder to SELECT the breeding stock out of these athletic pairings. The athletes that are deemed not breedable are sent to sport. Hence breed the best , ride the rest.

Most of the best stallions in the world were not from performing mothers. Most of the best breeding mares in the world were not from performing mothers. Casall’s mother in sport ? No. Contender’s ? No. Cassini 's ? No. Capitol’s ? no Corland ,Indoctro , Cardento ? No. The famous mare Ratina Z has just now produced a quality offspring after all these years.

Most of these retired GP mares are are individually good athletes but not from good breeding lines , hence why most don’t produce. I was just in Wellington the first of March and there were some awesome jumping mares. Upon closer look…a good breeder wouldn’t breed with them.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=omare;7509904]
I am sure that is true for holsteiner breeders but seems less true for others breeds and an overly broad statement to make. Certainly there are enough examples of top performance mares producing top sport horses. (Stella comes to mind.) The biggest problem is they are so late usually getting to the breeding shed. Statistically I am pretty sure it has been shown the better black type race mares are shown to be the producers of the better horses than their less successful sisters but they have the advantage of being retired before a show mare even starts its career. Yes I know the genuine risks did not shine but as a rule the better stakes winning mare will produce a better racehorse than the non winner.[/QUOTE]

The only thing they are bred for is speed for heaven’s sake. Of course a speedy mare is likely to produce speed when it’s the only thing she has to do. There are no breeding stock inspections in racing TB’s. Everything breeds everything. No stallion selections…only speed. Stop comparing TB breeding to sporthorse breeding. There is no comparison.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Hillside H Ranch;7509924]
I used to believe the adage of “breed the best, ride the rest”, as that is what I was taught by several breeders that I truly respect. But in the last year or two I’ve really noticed that there are some extremely successful upper-level jumpers whose dams had their own sport careers. Now that it is something I’m digging in to, the list just keeps growing. Off the top of my head, there’s Kannan’s dam, who jumped up to 1.30m, I believe (granted, not Grand Prix). Zirocco Blue’s dam jumped to 1.50m and both his grand dam and great grand dam jumped 1.40 m. There’s Big Star’s dam who jumped up to 1.30m (I think), Eurocommerce London’s dam jumped 1.60m, and of course Quidam de Revel’s dam jumped in several Nation’s Cups. I’m not nearly as familiar with Holsteiners as Reece is, but Cartani just caught my eye and his dam Taggi had a great career and I think jumped in the Barcelona Olympics. I have actually started keeping a list as I come across horses from performing dams, but I’m not actually at home where my list is (I’m a nerd like that, for sure:)). I do know that there are tons of top horses whose dams certainly never even saw a saddle, but there are enough at the opposite end of the spectrum that I don’t believe it to just be a fluke. The great thing about breeding, though, is that different philosophies can produce equally successful horses. Just look to the registries to see how varying successful breeding philosophies can be, much less the differences between individual breeders![/QUOTE]

Cartani’s father Carthago…world famous. Cartani’s mother Taggi…world famous. Cartani himself ? Not so much. Thanks for making my point.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

Oh Reece, while I was not arguing that Cartani is “world famous”, perhaps you should take up that argument with the Verband; they seem to think pretty highly of him. From the Verband website “Cartani is one of the most successful Holsteiner stallions on the international show jumping circuit. With wins and placings at Grand Prix and nations cup level (for example in Rom, St. Gallen, Balve, Aachen, Drammen, Linz, and Oslo) under his belt, he competed at the European championships in 2013. Due to his starting for Denmark, most of his international results are not recorded in the FN year book and thus not included in the breeding value estimation.”

Regardless, Zirocco Blue, Kannan, QdR, etc=World Famous. But here’s the thing; you can sit there all day long and make a list of top horses whose mothers did nothing in sport. I can sit here all day long and make a list of top horses whose mothers DID have a sport career. But it doesn’t matter! We all get to make our own breeding decisions and that’s the beauty of it
For everyone else; I do apologize for the high-jacking of this thread. I love seeing what other breeders are planning!

[rodawn]

Seriously. OFF TOPIC. The topic was a simple little request for people to share what they were breeding to this year.

This was not supposed to be a topic on breeding PHILOSOPHY and the differences of opinion therein. Can we please get back to the original topic? I’m more interested in hearing about all the gorgeous foals we should be expecting in 2015. Thanks!

[HyperionStudLLC]

Some philosophy comments are good for the discussion. What I do see though is that American breeders are amping up their choices and making more thoughtful decisions these days. Makes it all the more exciting!

[omare]

Reece we are talking about the ability of top performance mares to pass on their superior performance traits. Genetics are genetics. Jumping is inheritable as is speed-can a mare that shows a superior athletic trait pass that trait on–that is what you are challenging. Frankly the same use to be said about race mares.

You also use to say what you are saying about mares – top performance does not equal top progeny --about stallions and that does not hold either.

My apologizes folks–I will get off this forum for now, back to the topic!

[Donella]

Performance mares are usually not the best producers likely because 99 percent of them are never given the opportunity to produce! Pretty hard to do both up until recently.

I am breeding this year with Diamond Hit, Belissimo M, Sir Donnerhall, Floriscount, Contendro 1 and a young stallion that is here in training that just blew me away. He is Ampere/Grusus. I also have a mare that will go to Freestyle.

[RanchoAdobe]

This statement is becoming a bit outdated from what I can tell-
many of the well established breeding farms in Europe are now breeding and riding the “the best.” Just take a look at how many ET foals the Van Straatens are producing each year from mares that the son and daughter are actively competing. Also see ET’s from clients whose mares are very active in sport. The auctions prices of foals also seem to reflect the trend toward performance and many of the top foals had mothers successful in sport. This may not apply to Holstein, I did not follow holst auctions/stallion approvals, but KWPN stallion approvals were certainly emphasizing sport in the pedigree and auction prices also reflected the same. Hillside is also right to say that foals from mothers who were successful in sport sell in the US. Breeding is expensive here and for those with relatively “young” programs having mares successful in sport is a prerequisite for a staying above water financially.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Hillside H Ranch;7510074]
Oh Reece, while I was not arguing that Cartani is “world famous”, perhaps you should take up that argument with the Verband; they seem to think pretty highly of him. From the Verband website “Cartani is one of the most successful Holsteiner stallions on the international show jumping circuit. With wins and placings at Grand Prix and nations cup level (for example in Rom, St. Gallen, Balve, Aachen, Drammen, Linz, and Oslo) under his belt, he competed at the European championships in 2013. Due to his starting for Denmark, most of his international results are not recorded in the FN year book and thus not included in the breeding value estimation.”

Regardless, Zirocco Blue, Kannan, QdR, etc=World Famous. But here’s the thing; you can sit there all day long and make a list of top horses whose mothers did nothing in sport. I can sit here all day long and make a list of top horses whose mothers DID have a sport career. But it doesn’t matter! We all get to make our own breeding decisions and that’s the beauty of it
For everyone else; I do apologize for the high-jacking of this thread. I love seeing what other breeders are planning![/QUOTE]

Liz , Cartani was booed when they approved him in Nuemunster. Why was he booed ? Because he has no motherline to look to. His mother is an anomoly , a freak.

Cartani is showing in smaller classes Liz with Charlotte von Ronne. Compared to his parents , he is not up to snuff. Cartani also had a full sister. She was bred to Acorado to make Artani. Also normal. The point is Taggi has had her chances and has been unable to produce top horses.

MOST GP mares are there for their atleticism. Their conformation and type are usually not good. When you breed with them , you are hoping that they transfer that athleticism but when they dont and they transfer their incorrectnesses…you are left with not a nice baby.

I know alot of these retired GP mares around the country. They have been passed from barn to barn because folks didn’t like their foals. I know some of your mares…I wish you luck

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Hillside H Ranch;7510074]
Oh Reece, while I was not arguing that Cartani is “world famous”, perhaps you should take up that argument with the Verband; they seem to think pretty highly of him. From the Verband website “Cartani is one of the most successful Holsteiner stallions on the international show jumping circuit. With wins and placings at Grand Prix and nations cup level (for example in Rom, St. Gallen, Balve, Aachen, Drammen, Linz, and Oslo) under his belt, he competed at the European championships in 2013. Due to his starting for Denmark, most of his international results are not recorded in the FN year book and thus not included in the breeding value estimation.”

Regardless, Zirocco Blue, Kannan, QdR, etc=World Famous. But here’s the thing; you can sit there all day long and make a list of top horses whose mothers did nothing in sport. I can sit here all day long and make a list of top horses whose mothers DID have a sport career. But it doesn’t matter! We all get to make our own breeding decisions and that’s the beauty of it
For everyone else; I do apologize for the high-jacking of this thread. I love seeing what other breeders are planning![/QUOTE]

Liz , Cartani was booed when they approved him in Nuemunster. Why was he booed ? Because he has no motherline to look to. His mother is an anomoly , a freak.

Cartani is showing in smaller classes Liz with Charlotte von Ronne. Compared to his parents , he is not up to snuff. Cartani also had a full sister. She was bred to Acorado to make Artani. Also normal. The point is Taggi has had her chances and has been unable to produce top horses.

MOST GP mares are there for their atleticism. Their conformation and type are usually not good. When you breed with them , you are hoping that they transfer that athleticism but when they dont and they transfer their incorrectnesses…you are left with not a nice baby.

I know alot of these retired GP mares around the country. They have been passed from barn to barn because folks didn’t like their foals. I know some of your mares…I wish you luck

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=Donella;7510328]
Performance mares are usually not the best producers likely because 99 percent of them are never given the opportunity to produce! Pretty hard to do both up until recently.
.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree, and would add… In this market, a performance horse has MUCH more value then a broodmare, so more and more of “the best” are headed toward performance where they develop a better resale value. Sadly, breeding stock values are down, even for “the best”.

Congratulations to Hillside on their successful mares!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=omare;7510309]
Reece we are talking about the ability of top performance mares to pass on their superior performance traits. Genetics are genetics. Jumping is inheritable as is speed-can a mare that shows a superior athletic trait pass that trait on–that is what you are challenging. Frankly the same use to be said about race mares.

You also use to say what you are saying about mares – top performance does not equal top progeny --about stallions and that does not hold either.

My apologizes folks–I will get off this forum for now, back to the topic![/QUOTE]

No Omare it’s not…TB racers are bred for speed and only to be sound for 3 years. That’s it and most of the time they can’t even accomplish that. Showjumpers have to be bred for correctness , type , athleticism etc. that all lead to soundness and longevity because the horse is just starting his career at 9 yrs old.

You can not compare TB breeding and sporthorse breeding…you can’t. Apples and oranges.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7510457]
Liz , Cartani was booed when they approved him in Nuemunster. Why was he booed ? Because he has no motherline to look to. His mother is an anomoly , a freak.

Cartani is showing in smaller classes Liz with Charlotte von Ronne. Compared to his parents , he is not up to snuff. Cartani also had a full sister. She was bred to Acorado to make Artani. Also normal. The point is Taggi has had her chances and has been unable to produce top horses.

MOST GP mares are there for their atleticism. Their conformation and type are usually not good. When you breed with them , you are hoping that they transfer that athleticism but when they dont and they transfer their incorrectnesses…you are left with not a nice baby.

I know alot of these retired GP mares around the country. They have been passed from barn to barn because folks didn’t like their foals. I know some of your mares…I wish you luck[/QUOTE]

Well, in all fairness, Cartani was only one of the examples I listed I stand behind my opinion, and while I’m still learning (and probably always will be), I’m happy with what I’m doing, my buyers are happy and as my oldest offspring are just now hitting the ring, time will tell if I’m way off base! Btw, congrats on your recent lovely Casall filly. I think we can all agree that she’s a filly any of us would be proud to produce