Spinoff - Forage Philosophies

[FjordBCRF]

It was suggested in the Early Barn Hours we needed a forage spinoff. I’ll start one as this is on my mind dealing with a laminitis flare up.

We hear a lot of 24/7 access to hay and not leaving horses on an empty stomach for extended hours. There is a lot of good research showing that this supports the horses genetic predisposition TO forage and keeping forage in their stomachs helps to prevent ulcers. Like many things, this is NOT a one size fits all approach.

As a fjord owner with a history of laminitis and is currently in a acute flare, we personally can’t be too careful. At least locally, I see more breeds like gypsy vanners, Friesian/FriesianX, cobs, halflingers and fellow fjords that look like they are knocking on laminitis’ front door. A BO at a barn I was BEMERing asked me to look at a vanner in her barn saying the vet said he needed to lose 100lbs. When I looked at him, I told her at LEAST 100 lbs. Obvious fat pads and couldn’t even squish to a rib. BO looked at me like I was nuts too. I told her I’d always rather see a predisposed breed with a BCS of a 4 than a 6…if you can get them there.

While we can’t have food in our face all day every day, I do my darn best to make sure the whopping 20 lbs of total food he gets a day is spread out as much as humanly possible to do our best to mitigate ulcers as I don’t need to deal with that on top of a laminitic horse. And to keep him as happy as possible in his stall during stall rest.

I purchased an iFeed Naturally Autofeeder a couple years ago, and while the price tag is a bit steep, $600ish, it has been some of the best money I have spent. That is set to dispense smaller portions of hay/beet pulp pellets overnight and bridging the afternoon gap between the time he finishes his morning hay bag and dinner time.

There was a comment in the other thread which stuck in my mind as well that was a reminder that while 24/7 forage is ideal, we have to be aware of the broader environment too. If that translates to one round bale that the horse stands in front gorging on for hours on end…the walking/distance element of foraging is lost which is hugely important as well. Same goes for 24/7 hay in the stall if turnout is limited. For harder keepers, this is likely ideal, for easy keepers…not so much. Ive been down the rabbit hole on podcasts, and the general consensus seems to be that thoroughbred and Standardbreds generally deal with weight issues the least. Breeds outside of those two you should be keeping a close eye on.

My long term hopes are that when we eventually build our cabin/barn I will be able to go all out on a paddock paradise set up with a come and go into the stalls. Hopefully Charlie will still be around when that happens, but I would love to have a soft landing and be able to help rehab fjords with the fjord horse rescue network.

[Scribbler]

It’s absolutely a balancing act with most moderately active or inactive pet horses.

IMHO getting the horse into metabolic syndrome is a life sentence and potentially lethal with founder, so between EMS and the risk of ulcers, I’d go with ulcers. Obesity is the biggest health risk these days for all pets including horses, as well as humans.

Reducing food and adequate movement is the solution. Yes, a 3 year old track TB can live in a tiny stall during race season, but is burning calories sprinting, hand walking, and growing. The issue is keeping weight on for racing TBs.

Most other horses are ill served by stalls and tiny turnout paddocks.

You need to find what works for your horse. I have my easy keeper mare on a home made timed feeder that drops hay 4 times a day.

[FjordBCRF]

@Scribbler

You need to find what works for your horse. I have my easy keeper mare on a home made timed feeder that drops hay 4 times a day.

This sounds awesome!

[LCDR]

I’d guess many owners do not really know how to assess a horse’s weight status or have a reasonable idea of their horse’s actual weight. Getting fat creeps up on you if you see the horse daily. How many own and use a weight tape? And how many actually own a horse scale? I do, but I am pretty obsessive. My livestock scale cost slightly under $500.

Any what percentage of owners (feeders) have scales and weigh the horse’s hay portions and feed quantities? I do. The hay scale cost about $60. The feed scale about $20.

[Obsidian_Fire]

Great idea for a thread. I’ll be honest - I don’t know how you all do it with these super easy keepers. I worked for several years on a pony farm, which is where I learned all about EMS etc. I’ll tell you, I have no better answers now than I did then.
Soak the hay. Feed it in slow nets (or other slow feeder). Plenty of exercise. Source out tested, low sugar hay. Weigh it. Provide as many small feedings as you possibly can. But… so many of us board, and too many BO’s are still stuck in the “2 feedings a day” routine.
Even at that, I’ve seen too many develop laminitis anyway.
Makes me damn grateful to be feeding an OTTB who puts her own self on a diet!

The BCS system… I struggle with it when I’m looking at the heftier breeds. Gypsies, Cobs, Canadians, even old-style Morgans and some QH. They are naturally more “built”, and it’s hard to decide sometimes if they are overweight or just right.

I think, if I remember right, current research shows horses should not go more than 6 hours without putting something in their stomach.
I also believe they should have something in their stomach before being ridden.

[FjordBCRF]

@LCDR

I’d guess many owners do not really know how to assess a horse’s weight status or have a reasonable idea of their horse’s actual weight. Getting fat creeps up on you if you see the horse daily. How many own and use a weight tape? And how many actually own a horse scale? I do, but I am pretty obsessive. My livestock scale cost slightly under $500.

My experience is many owners, particularly those that board know very little. Most boarders I have boarded with are lucky to know what type of feed an how much their horses get let alone anything past that. I haven’t come across too many BO’s that are super savvy outside of the basics as well.

Not that I need to spend anymore money right now, but could you share a link to your scale?..asking for a friend LOL

[FjordBCRF]

@Obsidian_Fire

The BCS system… I struggle with it when I’m looking at the heftier breeds. Gypsies, Cobs, Canadians, even old-style Morgans and some QH. They are naturally more “built”, and it’s hard to decide sometimes if they are overweight or just right.

I got a similar sentiment from the BO asking me about the Gypsy. While they certainly are suppose to be built heavier by breed standards, they don’t need any extra help!

[Obsidian_Fire]

@FjordBCRF

I haven’t come across too many BO’s that are super savvy outside of the basics as well.

I consider myself extremely lucky to have had a BO who bred and raised ponies and whose passion was nutrition; after dealing with severe laminitis in a couple of her ponies way back when. I learned a LOT from her. She was the first (and only) BO I’ve ever had who fed 3x/day, had all day T/O, and fed 4x/day if they were stuck in for some reason.

[FjordBCRF]

Before I got Charlie, I rode with a friend who her and her family have had welsh cobs for pretty much a lifetime. I rode at her place for 15 years and watched her manage more than one with EMS/PPID. When I got Charlie I had some baseline knowledge for easy keeper types, but boy have I gotten the deep dive in the 4 years Ive owned him.

[LCDR]

Link to livestock scales. I used this seller but there are lots of others. A&A Scales was good with communication and responding to a couple of questions I had. I have the scale on top of my rubber barn aisle mats and it is accurate, I tested with my collection of tractor suitcase weights to check. BTW it will register instantly the weight of whoever steps on the scale leading the horse onto it. Don’t let my trainer know.

http://www.palletscales.net/livestock_scales.htm

The hay scale I ordered from Amazon. It is one of many brands that are all thesame - likely all sourced from the same factory. I just picked the one with the lowest price. It is a VEVOR brand digital platform scale.

[FjordBCRF]

For anyone interested, I have this for our daily hay bag weighing. Works super well if weighing pellets in a bucket as well. This specific one looks out of stock but was $8.99.

[Scribbler]

It’s not that long ago that the prevailing horse problem was underfeeding or over working. I was a kid in the 1960s and 70s where there were still dude strings that chronicly underfed their horses, and range horses semi starving every winter. Having a sleek horse, a nice 5.5 out of 10 on the body scale, was a mark of good horsemanship.

We are still programmed to see fat as good and pretty in livestock. The average per horse owner would be horrified if they were stuck at 4 or even 4.5, but complacent at 6 and climbing. The SPCA will swoop on horses in the 3 to 4 range but no one has ever had SPCA attention for an EMS 8 pony with chronic laminitis despite the fact that’s equally a big management fail.

[FjordBCRF]

@Scribbler

We are still programmed to see fat as good and pretty in livestock. The average per horse owner would be horrified if they were stuck at 4 or even 4.5, but complacent at 6 and climbing. The SPCA will swoop on horses in the 3 to 4 range but no one has ever had SPCA attention for an EMS 8 pony with chronic laminitis despite the fact that’s equally a big management fail.

Dogs and cats too. Our vet always makes a point to comment how good our dogs weights are.

[greywithchrome]

I agree with your overall sentiment. The people who are vehemently against any sort of forage restriction have never owned a metabolic horse lol. My Morgan is currently in a dry lot with hay 24/7 in a fairly restrictive hay net and she is still 100-150 pounds overweight. In a perfect world she would get 4 weighed meals a day in hay nets and if she ran out then tough luck. But instead I’ve killed myself over the last couple years trying to accommodate her needs in a boarding environment with other people’s horses involved and it’s so tough! I even moved her to a state-of-the-art track system that was built for fat horses but the hay net holes were so big that she got even fatter!

And then … I bought another one. A connemara. Why do I do this to myself

[luvmyhackney]

I restrict forage for one horse and one pony. They get hay weighed and fed 3x a day and wear muzzles in a dry lot with the tiniest bit of grass and hay in slow feed bags.

They don’t usually go longer than 3-4 hours without forage and both get worked 3-4x a week.

They each get 1 measuring cup of pre-soaked beet pulp, California trace, MSM, vitamin e.

If I fed unlimited hay, they would explode.

[sherian]

I’m a farrier and if I had a nickle for every time I 've told someone their equine needs to loose weight I’d be rich. Best thing I did for my own horses was that when we had a hay shortage I fenced a second rough pasture for their winter turnout, so instead of standing around the round bale all day in the sacrifice paddocks in the winter they now get breakfast hay than they have to go out and paw for the day. Not only do they come out of winter a healthier weight, they are fitter and happier.

[RedHorses]

For some horses, eating until they explode or gobbling their entire ration in an hour is a learned behaviour. Which isn’t saying those horses could ever have had free choice hay, just that it might have been easier to stretch their hay consumption out over a longer period.

I’ve had my senior for his whole life and he’s pretty much had free choice hay. It’s been in nets for about half of that - because of his breathing, not weight. My fourth horse had the well sprung Arabian barrel and he appeared overweight as soon as his ribs disappeared. Neither had the need to eat everything the minute it showed up, even when they were fed hay twice a day. They would eat some and come back later for more. Of course they weren’t competing with a horse that had the need to eat everything as fast as possible either.

I actually do use my weight tape regularly. It lives in my grooming kit and I try to use it every Sunday so I can see any fluctuations before they’re really visible. I don’t want my senior carrying extra weight in his heaves season, and I also don’t want him underweight going into the winter. He’s about 50lbs under normal right now, and while he has lost muscle this past winter his ribs are a bit too obvious.

It doesn’t matter if the weight tape is giving a scale accurate weight. If the same person uses the same tape to measure the horse’s weight regularly, they will see fluctuations and be able to adjust the horse’s feed or exercise to compensate.

I do tend to stick a feed tub of alfalfa cubes in front of my senior while I’m prepping to ride. He’s at the age where he’s needing extra calories to maintain his weight. I did give my Wobbler soaked alfalfa cubes before riding when he had ulcers, and he was happier with that in his stomach. Before the ulcers I didn’t bother because he did live outside with free choice hay.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@RedHorses

eating until they explode or gobbling their entire ration in an hour is a learned behaviour.

Given how many horses are kept, it’s no wonder. Survival of the fittest often means “who gets to eat and who did not”.

My BO has a Morgan gelding. He was a stud the first 10 or so years of his life, then gelded, but always kept in a stall and fed free choice. She was gifted him about 3 years ago now. He was so fat his crest was wobbling from side to side. This was more than just a stallion neck. Fast forward to now, where he is ridden regularly, and not walk rides - he’s trotting and cantering a lot - and his caloric needs are much more appropriate - and he still has a crest and is still overweight. His body just will not let go of those last pounds.

[FjordBCRF]

@Obsidian_Fire

@RedHorses

eating until they explode or gobbling their entire ration in an hour is a learned behaviour.

Given how many horses are kept, it’s no wonder. Survival of the fittest often means “who gets to eat and who did not”.

It can also be an indication of issues with insulin regulation as well.

[fordtraktor]

I am a huge proponent of 24/7 forage if possible, but like I said on the other thread, for some horses the risks of extra weight far outweigh concerns with ulcers. I have a “fat field,” actually 2 fat fields right now, and manage the hay intake there. Both fields are eaten down pretty well but also have some space, which is nice because they can nibble without really getting anything. Even then, I had to put my minidonk in a private paddock with no grass. He’s thriving on his sad little half a flake per day diet – he looks better than he ever has. But he was bred for the desert and living on scrubby bushes, not lush green paddocks.

I have been down the laminitis road before and it is not a fun one. I’ll do what I can to keep that from happening again.

I second getting a metabolic panel run on anything questionable. Two out of fifteen on my farm have metabolic issues – one Cushings and one hypothyroid. It is very important to treat those conditions. You definitely can’t tell by looking. I was sure the donk would by his looks, but his bloodwork was perfect.