Spinoff from DSLD/ESPA thread: breeders sharing health issues openly?

Are Warmblood and Iberian breeders at a similar point (with DSLD/ESPA) that QH breeders were at one time (with HYPP)?

It seems that DSLD/ESPA is becoming a more open topic of discussion. It also seems that it might very well be a heritable trait. Currently, AFAIK, a nuchal ligament biopsy is the only available tool for diagnosis or verification.

Breeders, particularly SOs, seem to be less than open about which breeding lines may contribute to the systemic disease. Clearly, without an identified genetic marker, it is not easy to say how or if a stallion or mare, or combination thereof, may pass on the defect.

Is there a place in horse breeding for health clearances?

Reasoning:
In my dog breed (Rottweilers), the parent Breed Club has requirements and recommendations about tests that must be done prior to breeding animals. Some of these include evaluation and normal or passing results for hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, dentition, eye problems, and several other factors. The parent breed club requires breeding animals to have tests and results available in a database (CHIC/OFA), whether results are ideal, or less than ideal. This allows open access to test results. It allows a potential breeder to consider some specific health factors that are a concern in Rottweilers, as one aspect in planning a breeding. The database is also set up so that siblings and offspring of listed animals can be found, and their results considered.

NOT every animal is listed, only those who have had health clearances done. However, any breeding animal is required, by the parent breed club’s mandatory practices, to be listed with results. Breeders with good, healthy stock over generations, have no issues making all results public. Some breeders will require puppy owners, as part of a purchase contract, to have the required tests done, whether the pup will be used for breeding or not. Other owners may have incomplete results on an animal, if a test comes back as not passing. But in general, the health test results are a very useful tool when considering breeding pairs. The database does not identify specific genetic markers for a given health issue, just the test results/grading. And certainly there are many more factors to consider in planning a breeding, such as temperament, what a breeder may be trying to improve, and aspiring to the “ideal” breed standard. ((NOT all breeders are members of the parent breed club, and therefore are not held to these requirements and mandatory practices for breeding stock.))

Similarly, one of the things I wish that Rottweiler breeders will track and disclose is longevity and age/cause of death (if known) of the animals they produce. This could easily be added to the current database. Using such a tool may be one way to decrease the incidence of certain cancers that are of concern in the breed. This information, even age of death, does not seem to be readily available.

TL;DR— will horse breeders, or parent breed organizations, eventually require and disclose health testing for known issues? With the recent discussions of ESPA, breeding animals that may carry that trait, and the availability of a test (nuchal lig biopsy) to identify affected animals, will this encourage more open sharing of such information?
What other traits are, or are likely to be, heritable?
What information, in an ideal world, would a breeder like to know when considering pairings?
Would such information BE useful?
Will SOs and MOs eventually be required to disclose issues of concern?
Is healthy longevity a factor when considering breeding pairs?
Or will breeders choose NOT to disclose these/any health concerns present in a breeding animal?
What might be the best venue to have this conversation?

Or is this simply too “hot” a topic?

Please discuss. And feel free to PM any comments, if you prefer.

In my experience, no, breeders are not sharing with the public when their horses sire or foal out a horse with genetic issues, DSLD/EPSA among them.

In my experience breeders are the first to immediately blame the other half, or the management of the horse.

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The issue is that there is not a genetic test for it and we actually do not even know for a fact that it is heritable. We assume that, but really, not much is known about that aspect of the disease. There are stallions that I suspect have DSLD but unless I know FOR SURE I am not going to openly say " so and so has DSLD". That isn’t fair. In the case where someone has a confirmed case of DSLD, how does a person know what parent or line it came from? Perhaps it is not the stallion but the mare? Perhaps it’s neither and comes from somewhere else down the line. I guess this is the problem… what are breeders supposed to do?

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This is true… but… there should still be a dialogue there.

Buyers and owners shouldn’t have to find out the hard way that their horse came from lines that did demonstrate a proclivity towards it.

I do think it is recessive, as it doesn’t always seem to appear even from a family line known for it.

It’s a pretty serious problem and I don’t give breeders a pass for it just because “as of right now, there is no test”. If they know more than one of their stud’s offspring has the disease, they need to be open about it.

There’s also a huge issue with cervical issues too where plenty of stallion owners are well aware that the stallion either has CA and/or cervical abnormalities or even kissing spine and none of it is ever disclosed.

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Thank you both for your comments. I expect there will be a wide range of opinions.

We don’t know the prevalence of ESPA because it is being studied at a very limited level. As I understand, animals suspected of having it may be symptomatic, or the owners/vets want to exclude the possibility in building a differential diagnosis, treatment plan and prognosis.

We don’t know how many animals, and in what breeding lines, a given condition may affect if we are not looking for it, IMO.

What are some other conditions or diseases that are known or suspected to be heritable, even if we do not know of a genetic marker yet? I know some breeders are picky about a club foot. What about OCD?

What conditions are historically avoided by breeders even without confirming information? (This probably goes more in the direction of “the art of breeding”.)

How much of a factor is soundness in advanced years, when a breeder considers a breeding pair?

I guess another way of looking at the broad issue is to ask “Why do certain nicks work? What factors about those lines predict a good sport horse?”

The Rottweiler database certainly does not answer all health questions in planning a breeding, but it is helpful to be able to see trends. Even looking at it today I learned of another test that is recommended. I also learned that there are certificates that can be issued for dogs that reach certain longevity ages.

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I get how hard it can be. But you won’t be able to find out if it’s hereditary nor develop a test for it if breeders won’t talk and disclose and get together to solve the issue. My deep thanks to the Connemara breeders who got together and worked out the basics of what turned out to be the HWSD gene and helped get data and funding for the test developed at UC Davis. Thanks to this there’s no need to have any more ponies born with the condition, and we can safely use breeding stock that carry a single copy. It went from being a whispered liability to being something we can completely understand and control for $40 an animal.

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@poltroon , what seemed to work to openly discuss, address and investigate the HWSD gene? Was it a “whisper campaign” that gained steam? Did breeders bite the bullet and decide they needed to deal with the issue? Was the prevalence/occurrence such that it could not be ignored any longer?

Just wondering what approach was successful to get things rolling. No doubt having UC Davis on board gave weight to getting to the cause identified. Chicken and egg: was UCD interested in the issue, or did breeders approach UCD to work to find the cause?

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IME, stallion owners are VERY cagey about sharing about problems in offspring.

First of all, there are a lot of problems that aren’t necessarily genetic. OCD can be genetic, but seems to also be linked to larger, better performing equine athletes, and there also can be a nutritional/environmental component. I Xray all of my yearlings late in the fall of the yearling year and we periodically find OCDs and when I have mentioned it to stallion owners they invariably say something horrified/defensive along the lines of “We’ve never heard of one of stallion X’s offspring having an OCD before.” Seriously? Or maybe no one else is Xraying? No one else is reporting back? I’m not blaming them, I breed larger horses so OCDs are occasionally going to happen, I’m just reporting back.

Aside from the OCD issue, I would say that many American breeders are not selective enough about their mares. FWIW, when I first started breeding 20 or more years ago I was not selective enough about my mares. Myself and a lot of other people have improved greatly on this count, but there are still many small breeders who are breeding horses that shouldn’t be bred. People think that breeding to a good stallion will dilute their mare’s faults, but in many cases flaws can appear or be amplified in offspring through no fault of the stallion. There are also still a great many backyard breeders, some of whom lack expertise in correctly managing the health and nutrition of breeding stock. I can understand why a SO would not want to accept that their stallion was at fault for a problem if there was some question about the quality or management of the mare. Additionally, some defects are just due to chance or bad luck.

There’s also the cost factor. What does it cost to own and raise a nice purebred stud dog? Now compare that to what it costs to purchase or raise/develop/get approved/get a show record for/market a breeding stallion. Let’s be frank–it costs a fortune. By the time a stallion is standing at stud and has a few offspring on the ground, there’s been a ton of $$ invested. I can understand the lack of interest a SO might have regarding testing their stallion for genetic flaws. I don’t see stallion owners being enthusiastic about testing for DSLD. To make it work, the test would have to be relatively inexpensive and something that could be done at an early age before too much $$ had been invested. Even then–what breeder wants to find out that their nice young horse has a flaw and is thus unsellable?

In 25 years of breeding, I have not seen much in the way of increasing investigation of / transparency about genetic flaws. When I choose a stallion, I do the same thing I did 25 years ago–reach out to people with offspring, talk to trainers or grooms or other connections about the horse, see the horse in person (if possible) or get current pictures/video, ask the farm vet if I feel comfortable (who certainly wouldn’t say anything bad, but if they are enthusiastic or have bred one of their own mares that’s a good sign).

FWIW, the same issues regarding lack of transparency about possible genetic flaws are present in the TB industry–probably even worse there. There’s just no motivation for disclosing anything that might cost the SOs business. I know of one TB stallion that has had spine surgery at a relatively young age and it is not disclosed to mare owners. The only reason I know is through the grapevine. Who knows if the problem is genetic or not? But personally I would avoid a stallion that had such a serious health issue at a young age.

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DSLD really isn’t that common though…like it’s not even something that most horse people are familiar with. So what can a breeder do? Am I supposed to do nuchal ligament biopsies on all of my mares and all of my young stock? We did the procedure for the PRE stallion I mentioned in the other thread but it was very invasive and it took him about six weeks before he was comfortable again. Should all 2 and half year old freshly licensed stallions be subjected to that? Because really, outside of that, I don’t really see how else you would stop this disease. In many cases, we don’t even see symptoms until they are in their teens and even then, many people really have no idea that it’s DSLD.

And in regards to OCD, it really isn’t a strictly genetic disorder or disease. There are many factors that play a role in the development of OCD and I can guarantee that virtually every popular breeding stallion in existence has offspring it.

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As a buyer of a horse with DSLD (verified by testing at age 3, horse bought in-utero) this makes me SOOO angry. I am considering quitting horses forever (a bike doesn’t need to be fed every day…). Is a nuchal test now part of every PPE? WHY won’t people talk about the negative as well as the positive (ohh, what a wonderful mover, really uses his back, I happen to have a foal by stallion X coming in the spring…blah, blah blah) I understand it is $$ and reputation (as in my stallion is great and would NEVER carry any sort of genetic recessive as this…even though they might have a inkling and don’t want to delve further…) Frustrating and it is driving people like me, an adult ammy with $ to spend and the desire but I have been burned too many times by crappy “trainers” and lame horses. rant over.

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In AQHA, stallion owners of good stallions, test for 5 or 6 genetic problems and advertise that their stallion is free of
x,x,and y. Mare owners are allowed to see the results before using the stallion. I don’t see why warmblood stallion
owners can’t do the same? Because they don’t want to risk the loss of income. If they had tested the stallion before
they bought him or before they spent all the money on training or promotion, they could have uncovered the potential problems. The buying public needs to start demanding this and maybe things will change.

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The big issue with genetic testing for DSLD/ESPA is that the heritability/genetic component causing the disease isn’t yet known. People don’t even know if it boils down to a single gene, and the statistical risk the issue is passed on.

One thing breeders/registries might do is reach out to a University (UC Davis is an obvious choice) and begin discussions about what would be needed for someone to act as a leader/ sole data collection point for the purpose of doing a scientific study to discover the genetic component behind this disease. If one university started a program to research this, then perhaps DNA from horses confirmed via nuchal biopsy to have DSLD/ESPA could be sent in for a few years. They might then have an adequate sample size to see if they could identify a genetic abnormality causing the condition.

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I don’t mean to single you out for any reason, it’s just that this comment caught my eye :slight_smile:

I think it’s probably more common than many realize, and IMHO, anyone who doesn’t really know what it is doesn’t have any say in how prevalent it is :slight_smile: I do think it’s a disease that is not black and white, is not directly heterozygous dominant, likely genetic, and not all horses with the (set of) genes will have triggers that start that snowball rolling downhill. I’m in agreement with others who think that for some horses, there is something that triggers the manifestation, while others have it blatantly, and outright from an early age.

I think enough horses don’t get triggered, or get triggered late enough in life that it doesn’t become a giant red flag, which is why it appears to be “not that common”.

Do I think it’s rampant? Definitely not. My personal (unproven, obviously) theory is that we are starting to see more of its symptoms in horses who are being more and more bred for that big elastic movement, potentially being similar to the growing thinking that those big loose-moving horses are actually a bit neurological. ESPA affects the whole body, not just suspensories. So why can’t it be related, even if just as part of the puzzle, to that big loose movement that’s become popular?

So what can a breeder do? Am I supposed to do nuchal ligament biopsies on all of my mares and all of my young stock? We did the procedure for the PRE stallion I mentioned in the other thread but it was very invasive and it took him about six weeks before he was comfortable again. Should all 2 and half year old freshly licensed stallions be subjected to that? Because really, outside of that, I don’t really see how else you would stop this disease. In many cases, we don’t even see symptoms until they are in their teens and even then, many people really have no idea that it’s DSLD.

Actually yes, I think that should be done. Why not do it as a young foal? thinking out loud As with any testing, it will surely evolve into being less and less evasive, and if there are enough nuchal ligament biopsies to be able to pair with DNA testing, that may speed up discovery of the gene(s) related to it.

ESPA is known to be more prevalent in some breeds, which almost by default means it’s heritable genetics. If not, it would be more or less evenly spread, by %, in the horse population as a whole, not much more prevalent in, for example, the Peruvian Paso.

IMHO it’s the buyers who are going to have to be the squeaky wheel in getting testing done. That’s going to be REALLY hard because no breeder really wants their 3yo to be subjected to the current nuchal ligament biopsy. But until buyers decide they won’t buy without a test (I know I know), or the registries start to require it for registration as foals, I really doubt breeders are going to take it upon themselves to get a handle on this.

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My mention of ESPA and OCD are only examples of possible issues that breeders might want to know about. And not just mare owners but stallion owners may want to know the status of a mare whose owner wants to breed her to that stallion.

My intention was to open a discussion about why breeders seem reluctant to acknowledge and investigate problem traits that may be heritable. IMVHO, the only way to even think about addressing health issues is to start a conversation that they exist, and to then get someone interested in the research aspect.

@poltroon , thank you for your example. That is the sort of info I was thinking of in my OP. In particular, starting with what events or factors got the conversations and interest going, to finding out if there was actually a genetic component, to identifying that genetic component, finding a way to test for it, and reaching the goal of eliminating it, to the degree that is possible.

I believe that Friesians are another breed that have some physical issues that are sometimes an issue in the breed, but I do not know the details of those very well. IIRC, the breed went through a sort of genetic bottleneck, with a greatly reduced population and thus genetic diversity, for a period of time, which may have played a role in magnifying those issues.

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How is it unfair to tell the truth about a particular animal having DSLD? That’s a different question than whether or not the sire or dam of that horse contributed the genetic problem.

I guess I’m confused. And if I’m confused as a buyer, I’m going to be a tad suspicious and aggressive with my questions. DSDL is devastating, so breeders can manage the problem, or their would-be buyers will. I think things will go better if the breeders do it.

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That’s the issue. I breed Trakehners and a few years back we as a membership enacted new regulations in an effort to keep three diseases (LFS/SCID/CA) out of our horses. You can test for them by submitting mane or tail hairs. Easy peasy. If there was an easy way to test for DSLD/ESPA I would do it in a heartbeat with all my mares, and encourage the registry to include that in the genetic testing policy as well, because you hear things about horses that are obviously concerning! I don’t want to create any foals that will suffer, I can’t imagine most breeders do!

I don’t know much about nuchal ligament biopsy…but a 6 week recovery sounds less than ideal. Can you tell me more about the cost?

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With HWSD in Connemaras, for years individual cases were just written off as bad feet, white line disease, poor management by owners, etc. It took some time for people to stand up and say, “Wait. There are more than there should be of these cases in a breed known for good feet. These are related. This is different.”

My pony is tested as a carrier and she’s been barefoot her whole life with beautiful, strong feet.

In addition, some of the HWSD/HWSD affected ponies did get managed well enough to be of some use, while others could not be kept comfortable at all.

I would think talking to UC Davis would be an excellent first step, along with collecting some contact info for known cases that could be sequenced. I don’t know what this research costs now but it’s probably in the range of a GoFundMe type effort.

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A question on the nuchal ligament biopsy. Does that not reveal the disease until it’s “active” and you can see other obvious physical symptoms like dropping fetlocks? Or could you do a nuchal ligament biopsy on a younger asymptomatic horse, and find evidence of the condition?

If the biopsy is completely inconclusive in asymptomatic horses, I don’t think it would make sense to put young horses through it as part of a PPE, or young stallion prospects through it.

With a concerted effort to analyze genetics of horses KNOWN to have the disease, then they may come up with a less invasive test that tells you if an animal is at risk. Even then though, sometimes disease risk is hard to quantify to much more than a probability range.

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University of Georgia is the one that seems to do the most work on DSLD (including a previous donation-funded research project: https://dar.uga.edu/funder/campaigns/equine-degenerative-disorder-research-project/). It would be interesting to hear from them what the current state of the research is and where it should go next.

There hasn’t been a single peer-reviewed article on nuchal ligament biopsies yet–that makes me wonder how good a test it is, really. I know Kent Allen recommended it to Lord Helpus recently, but the vets I have spoken with so far were more reserved about it.

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I suspect that this is true. Only on a young horse that is already becoming symptomatic somewhere would the biopsy be useful. Making a genetic correlation (if there is one to be made) will take a lot of samples from diagnosed horses and a lot of time most likely. Considering that the disease tends to manifest later in life, this makes the breeding issue all the more complicated without an easy test and something like a clear genetic correlation, with the marker being available to be found before the biopsy can confirm.

I think this is becoming one of those things that is probably more prevalent than we think because we now are starting to understand what we are looking at. And recognize it’s a disease that affects the entire body. I mean, 20 years ago, no one thought about gastric ulcers. Until someone realized that’s a thing in horses and then we started to find out it’s a really common thing. It’s not like horses 25 years ago wouldn’t have had ulcers.

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