Spinoff - how DO you stop an abuser??

[kdow]

@maunder;8198724

I once worked for a man that 1) put his hand through a window in anger and 2) ripped the rear-view mirror of his vehicle in anger.

I would have definitely hesitated to approach this man when he was in one of his temper tantrums.

I think it’s important when faced with a situation where we would like to intervene, that we consider some people are definitely violent and they might injure or kill you if you attempt to stop them from what they are intent on doing.

Because most of us don’t think in such violent terms we hope that no one else will turn around and chop us down in anger. But those people do exist and in general they don’t like being told what to do.

Right. My general attitude in emergency situations (which is how I think I would categorize seeing abuse happening right in front of me in that moment) is to follow the principle I heard from my friend who has EMT training, which is that the first thing you do in evaluating a situation to decide how to respond is MAKE SURE YOU DON’T END UP NEEDING HELP YOURSELF.

Obviously, with an EMT, that is more likely to mean something like waiting until they get an all-clear from fire fighters that the car is not going to explode or what have you, but as a general approach to emergencies, it seems to work fairly well. With someone engaged in temper-fueled abuse, like I said, I have exactly no experience fighting with anyone and pretty crummy joints. If I had to get into a fight I’d probably come out the worse for it and then potentially not be able to take other steps like contacting the police, recording, caring for the animal once it had been gotten away from the abuser, and so on.

I don’t think it’s cowardice to not just throw yourself right in there, I think it’s being smart to figure out the best way you personally can help. Cowardice would be not doing anything at all, ever. (I mean, if it was the BO doing the abusing, I can understand waiting to speak up until you’d moved your horse to safety if you feared retaliation. In that sort of case - document EVERYTHING, and report it as soon as you possibly can safely.)

[Coanteen]

Are people really expecting an attack or other physical altercation from a wannabe DQ “trainer” in a riding arena? I mean, Appsolute’s example of charros with cockfighting birds on the property, yeah, I wouldn’t go storming in there. But a trainer whipping a horse in a barn that I board at, or a show, or whatever? Especially a show where there’s tons of people? That is about as far from the “one guy crazily beating another guy, would you intervene?” scenario as you could be.

Has there ever been a case where telling someone at a dressage show to knock something off had resulted in fisticuffs

Yeah, I’d stop it. If I didn’t feel like stopping it physically, it’s easy enough to whip out a phone (or something phone-shaped if you’re far enough away) and remark loudly “oh look, another video of horse abuse about to hit FB/COTH/whatever.”

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

@Coanteen;8200164

Has there ever been a case where telling someone at a dressage show to knock something off had resulted in fisticuffs

I don’t know, but let’s hope so. Imagine the tickets you could sell to a DQ cage match. :lol: It’d be way better than a cockfight. We could fund a rescue with the profits.

[uphill]

Seriously? I couldn’t just do nothing. At the very least yelled at her to stop. I have even grabbed horses/animals away from being mishandled. Never thought about my safety… probably just lucky to not have had a problem.

[Beck]

Since when would YELLING from a distance be putting yourself in danger? Particularly if you have witnesses around you. Yell “STOP IT!” or “What the heck are you doing?” Roar it at them. You don’t have to ‘wade in’ and get up close to do so.

[kdow]

[QUOTE=Beck;8201167]
Since when would YELLING from a distance be putting yourself in danger? Particularly if you have witnesses around you. Yell “STOP IT!” or “What the heck are you doing?” Roar it at them. You don’t have to ‘wade in’ and get up close to do so.[/QUOTE]

I’d say it depends a lot on the situation and the person. At a show with a lot of other people around and none of your animals due to stay where the abuser can get at them? Sure. At a stable when it’s basically just you and the abuser, and the abuser is also the BO? I don’t think it makes you a horrible person to be aware of your responsibility to your own animal (who could be the target of retaliation once you leave) or your own safety (if you are legitimately worried that the abuser will come at you.)

I’m sure it would be awful to feel like you couldn’t do anything safely to stop abuse from happening - but how many stories are there of people in the horse world who really do not seem to be operating by the same set of rules as the rest of us? People who would probably think nothing of doing something nasty to your horse to get back at you, even if they weren’t the type to come at you directly? I mean, this is someone who is already engaging in unacceptable treatment of an animal with some kind of anger management issues. They’re probably not going to hold off on doing whatever to get back at you for the sake of your horse, because they don’t really give a poop about the horse in the first place.

So people should do SOMETHING, but being careful about exactly WHAT you do is not the most horrible thing in the world.

Actually, I would say that a critical thing is no matter what you actually end up doing in the moment, as soon as you can, WRITE DOWN WHAT HAPPENED. Date and time and as many accurate details as you can manage. Document. (Even if you’ve taken video - it’ll give the video context.) The more documentation and proof there is, the better the chances of a successful case being built so that the person in question gets whatever penalty is legally available. (Which are really not strong enough in a number of places. “Oh, you whipped the horse bloody? Slap on the wrist for you!” Sigh.)

[ridebluesky]

What’s wrong with people who can watch but do nothing. I have zero tolerance for any bully. Roar at them to stop now with a whip or whatever is handy and grab the horse. Then call the cops. Then notify barn owner with accurate description of what happened. Spreading the word about said trainer would be helpful to. Bullies don’t like exposure. I can’t stand by and let an animal child or older person be assaulted. Stand Up and do the right thing.

[Lady_Counselor]

It would depend on the situation. I once grabbed away a chain from a jackass who was hitting a horse with it. We had an altercation of our own, but fortunately other people were running over as it happened and stopped it. (He had bi-polar and was off his meds)
I tend to be a jump in person when it’s dire. Maybe not the smartest thing sometimes, but it’s my makeup.
If you are alone, or out numbered, video it. Police may be useless. Sadly animal stuff tends to be low on the list of things for a lot of departments.
If you can get proof of what happened, you will have better leverage with SPCA agencies. Or at least go the online video shaming route.
I seriously detest people who beat and starve animals. I have a hard time not opening a can of whoop ass on them.

[partlycloudy]

But what if the abuse is just a little over the line?

For example, I walked into the barn I do a little training at, and the ‘hunter’ trainer and some other woman were attempting to body clip a mare. (Why you would body clip at the end of June is a mystery to me, but whatever’)

The mare, I know, is very reactive, and has had some former abuse. They had her twitched and a chain over the nose and you could see the horse looked terrified.

This is not something I would subject one of my own to, but is it out and out abuse or just crappy training.?

I do intend to speak to the barn owner about it, but was it bad enough to start hollering at them?

[SoMuchToLearn]

I understand exactly what partlycloudy is saying. One person’s training could be another’s abuse. A common example is tying a horse’s head around to its stirrup to teach the horse to “give”. I consider that abuse, there are so many kinder ways of teaching that concept. But, any AQHA (or APHA, PHBA, etc) would look at me like I had two heads if I voiced that opinion. And I know some people who think contact with the bit is abuse (no, not on the level of Haylee Sauberan, but they go off about how someone “never lets their horse have their head”).

I really do think I would have stepped in with the Haylee incident. But, the other one I referred to, I just don’t know. For sure I would have whipped out my camera, but that wouldn’t have prevented the horse’s bruised gums and split open mouth (trainer put a lip chain on the horse. I wasn’t there so I have no idea why he thought it was necessary). And the owner of the horse in question ripped trainer a new one when she found out. So, what happened? Trainer (who insisted that it was necessary “training” and not done in anger. Wth???) is now retaliating. Horse is no longer allowed turnout (which owner is fighting - and I suspect she’ll win. horse injured its leg last week so has been on stall rest anyway), her daughter is being snubbed and trainer is rude to owner any time she interacts with him. Barn owner won’t step in. I don’t know if it’s simply rumor or not, but trainer’s minions supposedly keep watch for “outsiders” when he’s riding this horse now. She’ll probably move her horse out, but what sucks is that she’s been there for years and loves the place and was the one who brought the trainer to the barn in the first place.