Spinoff: How many mature horses abound with little/no training to ride or even handle?

[Arelle]

Bring back the slaughter plants.

Fact of the matter is, there are too many horses and we’re losing homes by the week.

Quality horsemen are becoming harder and harder to find, and fewer and fewer people are willing to bring new people into the sport.

I know personally, I have had a hell of a time the last 18 months having enough time to work my own horses. I’m getting ready to send mine out, but I only trust a few people and they only have so many hours in the day as well.

How can we expect horses to have training when there aren’t good people with the time, or good instructors willing to share their knowledge? The talented horsemen I know are focused on the elite in the sport who keep their lights on. The talented instructors I know are retiring and there is no one to fill in the gap they’re leaving.

[Janet]

@TheDBYC

Something I’ve noticed locally is that many race horse breeders & trainer/owners don’t seem to have any equestrian involvement otherwise and often don’t know a whole heck of a lot about horses.

The man I was talking about clearly was a good horseman. He did most of his own veterinary work. In the week between when she agreed to buy her and when we came back to pick, her up, he taught the horse my sister bought to lead reliably. He just wasn’t interested in training them anything until there was a specific reason.

[173north]

@LaurieB

I know I’m being nitpicky but there is no such thing as a green broke or halter broke OTTB.

True, I should have been more precise in my wording! I suppose the point I was trying to make is that I see OTTBs listed on these sites, who have often been started in a second career (typically a Western one), at the same price point as random halter-broke horses who have never had a job besides hanging out in a field. It’s probably not relevant to this discussion as we’re talking about older unstarted horses, but as a big TB fan, I find it a bit unsettling.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Sounds like it reflects breed prejudice on the part of the sellers, who assume that because a horse “has good breeding,” it’s worth more to buyers even halter-broke than a OTTB who has at least some proven skills. (I am eye-rolling at such sellers, let it be known.)

[Scribbler]

Honestly people will sometimes pay more for an unstarted youngster because they can dream all kinds of potential about him.

More than when same horse is nicely broke but flatlined at First Level dressage or 2 foot 6 jumpers.

With OTTB the cost of breeding and early care and training is carried by the racing owner. About ten years ago a trainer told me it cost $30,000 to get a TB to the point where you know if he’s worth keeping. And that’s a lower level track a decade ago.

There’s then a perception that the sport horse trainer who is restarting them gets them for free or just about. That OTTB are a bottomless supply. Also that they have baggage.

Whereas your unbroke backyard bred Speshul Breed is worth $10,000 because he’s a blank slate and you have an inkling how much you’ve sunk into him (or not, if it’s a pasture raised feral one).

[MsM]

I dont tend to see unhandled older horses near me. Probably because few people have a big pasture to maintain them cheaply. Definitely see the untrained breeding stock that are no longer wanted or the “halter horse” that was not trained to ride.

I am old enough to remember the “Scottsdale Collectables” when having an expensive Arabian being shown in halter was a status symbol among the rich and famous. (And they artificially pumped up the value selling to each other) Lots of breeders saw $$$ and produced lots of untrained Arabians. When the scheme collapsed there were lots of these horses for cheap!

[conniemary]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

People who pride themselves on not being backyard breeders, because they are breeding horses with decent bloodlines, but don’t make any effort to put the training into the horse to justify the prices they are asking or reach clients with enough money to buy the horses they are producing.

I’ve seen one that has been for sale for years. Brand name sire, TB dam, initial asking price was high for an unbacked youngster. The horse has grown older and older but the price has not dropped - now 7yo, unbacked, still with a premium price tag. Breeder clearly believes it is worth the price, but the market does not.

[Equkelly]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

I see that too in my area quite a bit. People who pride themselves on not being backyard breeders, because they are breeding horses with decent bloodlines, but don’t make any effort to put the training into the horse to justify the prices they are asking or reach clients with enough money to buy the horses they are producing.

Or breeding horses for a discipline they have no background or experience in. I’ve seen this in English and western but I know so many breeders that breed quarter horses with “exceptional reining bloodlines” yet the breeders don’t know anything about reining or even any western performance discipline because they have no experience.

[Aussie_2020]

If I was looking for another horse I would most definitely check through unhandled 4 - 6 year olds. The sanest, strongest, bravest horse I have ever owned was a 4yo with minimal handling. You could lead him if he wanted to go that way, he would tolerate the farrier if you had a bucket of grain big enough to last him through the trim. I bought him for $800 and had the horse trainer pick him up. Within a month I had a horse I could ride at all 3 gaits (the canter was still rough in an arena) and he was confident on the trails, he would easily load, tie, etc. I took him home and started lessons with my dressage trainer. That horse was gold. And he was sound, sound, sound. Sound of mind and body.

[Montanas_Girl]

@MsM

I am old enough to remember the “Scottsdale Collectables” when having an expensive Arabian being shown in halter was a status symbol among the rich and famous. (And they artificially pumped up the value selling to each other) Lots of breeders saw $$$ and produced lots of untrained Arabians. When the scheme collapsed there were lots of these horses for cheap!

The Arabian industry is still dealing with the fallout from this. Breeders who collected huge herds in the 80s and 90s are aging out or dying, leaving their (usually non-horsey) heirs to disburse a dozen or more 20-something year old broodmares that are only halter broke. Usually, these breeders did stop breeding years ago, but they were unable or unwilling to put any training into their horses and just kept them hanging around. Vocal “rescue” proponents claim this means that no one should be breeding because there is an “excess” of Arabians on the market. Which couldn’t be further from the truth, but try explaining to these people that, when the market crashed, horses previously used for breeding didn’t just cease to exist…

[OverandOnward]

@Equkelly

Or breeding horses for a discipline they have no background or experience in. I’ve seen this in English and western but I know so many breeders that breed quarter horses with “exceptional reining bloodlines” yet the breeders don’t know anything about reining or even any western performance discipline because they have no experience.

This is where middlemen/people can have a role, if only people would use it. A sales barn of a pro trainer that does have access to the market could help place some of these horses from breeders who don’t have the contacts. But too many unschooled breeders think that the market should come find them. They wait for years on this, while the horses age. And possibly reproduce another generation, this time without any credentials on the sire/dam other than access to a horse of the opposite sex.

[TheDBYC]

@Janet

The man I was talking about clearly was a good horseman. He did most of his own veterinary work. In the week between when she agreed to buy her and when we came back to pick, her up, he taught the horse my sister bought to lead reliably. He just wasn’t interested in training them anything until there was a specific reason.

He knew something about horses from the school of hard knocks/having them around so long. That’s not a good horsemen. Training ultimately benefits the horse more than the human. Good horsemen or women don’t wittingly set their animals up for a vulnerable spot by refusing to train them unless there’s some immediate financial benefit.

My unvarnished, blunt opinion, anyway.

[Janet]

I’ll not disagree with that. I was responding to the post about the horse owners who had no idea about how to load a horse in a trailer.

[LSMarnell]

OP you shouldn’t have posted this as I have now called myself a liar. There IS a project horse, something interesting on CL finally. At least to me.
Arabs/ Arab crosses aren’t everyone’s cup of tea and I respect that. But that look…gah.
This would probably be a sign me up for making him a solid citizen ponying out on trail first. If
I wasn’t working 7 days a week to pay for the after care of a laminitic episode on my, Rock Solid, “I will take your whole paycheck, and you will be doing backflips over it”
gelding…

Quarter Arabian gelding - farm & garden - by owner - sale

[StormyDay]

Translation: I bought this horse at a local auction for $700. I have absolutely no idea what he is. He’s a hony and will probably gain 2 inches and not be able to get his pony card. He keeps bucking with me and I don’t have the money or care to figure out why. He’s probably got something wrong like my saddle doesn’t fit or bad trim job or he figured out that it’s a good way to get out of work, and I have no idea what I’m doing because he is my first horse. Help.

[Spudsmyguy]

@Equkelly

Or breeding horses for a discipline they have no background or experience in. I’ve seen this in English and western but I know so many breeders that breed quarter horses with “exceptional reining bloodlines” yet the breeders don’t know anything about reining or even any western performance discipline because they have no experience.

I didn’t breed the horse but bought her out of a feedlot as a 2 year old. Unhandled QH mare. She was papered though and after I was able to track down her history and did some research, found out she was cutting horse royalty. This became evident when I took her to a cow clinic and she caught on immediately. I sold her because I know nothing about cutting but this was something she was bred to do.

[173north]

I just saw an ad for a 21 year old QH stud for $3k. Started at 3 or 4, put back in the field, and has been there since. Never bred, not clear why he was left intact. He’s cute and palomino, if they’d gelded him a decade ago and sent him off for a 60 day refresher they probably could have gotten some money for him.

[Russinka]

I think the biggest issue with the old unbroken ones is that people aren’t willing to make the hard choices along side not getting them trained. Or maybe just don’t understand that death isn’t the worst thing that can happen to an animal.
I have two old pasture puff standardbred geldings. One is 25, broken in and a fairly solid trail horse but isn’t sound and the other is 19 was broken to harness as 2yo and then had a couple of weeks at the breakers in his mid teens after coming to me via my agistment owner from his elderly breeders (who were still driving him, but racing style, I doubt he knows what breeching is). I fully intended to ride him after having him broken to saddle but life did in fact get in the way (including almost a year I wasn’t medically allowed to ride) and now his job is keeping my old boy company.
I love both of them dearly and they’ll have a home here as long as I can afford to keep them and then they’ll go in the ground. I have a set amount I’m willing to spend on vet bills and how many months I can afford to keep them if I’m unemployed and I have a separate account with funds for two euthanasias in it. I’ve made it clear to my family and included in my will what is to happen to them as well as that money being allocated to that. Ultimately for these horses, I view it as, if I can’t ensure them a nice life then I’m obligated to give them a good death.

[Ruth0552]

New England here. I can’t remember the last time I saw horse advertised under $3000. There’s not much here right now.

I don’t think 4 years old and unbroke is that much of a deterrent, particularly if you want something that will be sound long term. Unhandled and 4 years old is appalling though. Don’t see that much in New England. And I’d guess at least 50% of horse owners are in over their heads.

What I do see is a lot of people looking to find a “new zip code” for their unrideable horse. Sometimes it’s someone looking for a retirement home for their beloved older horse, and sometimes is someone looking to place something that is unsound. But I saw one the other day, 21 years old, can be lightly ridden at the walk and trot, 3K. There were 20 comments of people interested.

[walkinthewalk]

1. Right now, I am aware of a small herd of horses that are not broke. Two are allegedly close to 20?

The owner is elderly and has cancer. The rest of the family swears they love the horses and will let them live out their lives on the family farm.

2. Then there is the lady who was older but not elderly that just did pass from cancer, leaving three broke trail horses and two dogs behind. The horses have been handled every day but not ridden for several years. Her family allegedly is telling the husband they don’t care where the horses & dogs end up, just get them off the farm ASAP.

So yes, I think not broke or not been handled in a long time, is a lot bigger issue than some folks realize. These horses could be diamonds in the rough, at good prices, waiting for the right person to come and take them home. The big issue in today’s world is that everyone wants a perfectly broke, push button horse and the prices on those horses is, rightfully, in the outer stratosphere.