Spinoff -- Sires That Aren't "Heading" Anything (Lists?)

[Rackonteur]

The thread about sending two stallions to Korea raised a question for me.

About sending “second-string” (my term) stallions to lesser-known studs …

Would it make better sense (or any sense at all) to geld such horses and sell them for other uses, e.g., hunting or eventing, than keep them entire and use them to produce more second-string foals?

I’m asking because I know nothing about the economics of breeding racehorses; just wondering if it would be better for the horse to have a useful life doing something else, and not filling the pastures with racehorses that may never succeed on the track and end up in TB rescues, or at auction or worse?

Looking for serious replies and info, please, not attacks.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

No, it would make no sense to geld a stallion like Arch Arch Arch when someone in Korea, or even in the US, will offer you close to seven figure sum to buy and stand him as a stallion.
He has a stud fee of $6k and covers 100+ mares.

[Texarkana]

Wow, I indirectly got a spinoff. :lol:

Not being the flagship sire for a farm does not mean they were failures or weren’t getting useful foals. I guarantee the Koreans bought those boys for A LOT of money.

You have to realize ArchArchArch and Tizway stood for $6K and $7.5K respectively. They covered more mares in a single season than most sport horse sires get in their entire careers. To suggest they should be gelded is almost insulting. If you culled every stallion that didn’t reach elite status, we would lose so much genetic diversity.

My response would be different if we were talking about some back country stud with no performance record or no pedigree. But that is not the case and I’m sorry if my comment about them not “heading” Spendthrift’s lineup created that misconception.

A side note- I’m tired of the continued finger pointing at the TB industry for “overbreeding” or not taking care of their own. There has been HUGE strides made for thoroughbred aftercare in my lifetime. I can’t think of any other breed organization who has put so much effort into aftercare this century. Could it still be improved? Absolutely! But oh my gosh… you have a multi-billion dollar industry devoted to expensive, purpose-bred matings and some “show” people still act like these Kentucky establishments are a bunch of backyard breeders.

I’m sorry if this came off too “attack-like.” It struck a nerve.

[Where_sMyWhite]

A complete aside… every time I see people jump on the ‘overbreeding TB’ band wagon, I think ‘try looking at the Quarter Horses’… :mad:

I would agree with above. Just because a stallion is no longer fitting into a large KY breeding farm’s program doesn’t make them failures. If, in this case, Spendthrift wanted to remove Archarcharch or Tizway from their program, they would; either to some regional farm or overseas. I suspect the regional vs overseas is probably a financial decision (but I really have no idea).

If only top stallions were retained, we’d run out of TBs to race I also suspect that more than few of what are considered top stallions have produced their share of “second string” foals that aren’t Grade I winners . What, after, is a second string foal? The current racing industry has a wide variety of conditions and tracks to fit the abilities of most TBs for at least some period in their life.

For Korea, it could be these stallions were not viewed as second-string but something that could improve their own country-based programs.

[Pronzini]

Besides some of the foals of “second tier sires” are pretty special. In fact many of the recent Derby winners (not to mention BC winners) were not sired by horses on the top of the lists–at least before the big day. Lightning really can strike when breeders can come up with a Wise Dan or a California Chrome or a Tiznow for the breeding equivalent of a ham sandwich.

[LaurieB]

First, I think it would be very hard to geld a horse who had been breeding 100+ mares a year for 3-4 years and expect him to suddenly behave like a gelding in a place like the hunt field, for example. TB stallions are trained to breed quickly and enthusiastically. They are rewarded for that behavior. Even if the testosterone was taken away, I’m not sure how much re-training it would take to overcome those years when breeding mares was all they were meant to think about.

Second, the horses in question aren’t breeding “second string foals” by any standard except the very top eschelon of U.S. racing. Their foals are healthy, correct, balanced, and talented. They just aren’t winning many graded stakes. That’s like saying that a champion show dog is useless because it never won Best in Show. Not only that, but in the booming Korean horse racing industry both these stallions will be considered top tier horses.

According to the comments made by a former owner on the BloodHorse website, ArchArchArch sold for a six figure sum. You may look down on a horse that is “only” worth that much money, but I certainly don’t.

[Rackonteur]

Thanks for your replies. I said I knew nothing about the economics of breeding racehorses. Now I know somewhat more.