Spinoff - Slapping Reins on Back

Speaking of slapping reins on the back, does anyone remember the old Westerns?

I seem to remember that the stagecoach drivers used to slap the reins on the backs to get the horses going. I can’t remember them holding a whip at all. Also when someone took a buckboard into town, I don’t remember them carrying a whip in the old western movies.

Also, when they went into town, they tied the horse with the buckboard attached up to the rail in front of the General Store!!!

Now, was this a Western movie thing, a tradition out of the old West or what?

Everybody at one time or another slaps their horse’s butt with the reins. It’s not “proper”, can give the horses a tug on their bit and you’re sure to lose in any driving show…everybody does it though.

The drivers in “the old days” were amazing with their whip handling. Mule drovers were known for their accuracy. Buggy whips were common and everyone used them, the movies don’t reflect much reality.

It’s a film, it’s not real life. They’re actors.

Trust me I’ve done a heck of a lot of film work and know precisely what happens when they’re cut and edited and to make things look much more exciting to the everyday viewer.

There’s even a memorable one where the actor driver is holding the reins and they’re crossed over half way down between his hands and the horse! Now THAT would make for interesting driving.

No proper driver slaps reins on the horses’ backsides nor do they hit the horses with the whip. Been that way with drivers since driving began. Much mention is made of it in the early driving books going right back to the 18th century. Hitting a driving horse with reins OR a whip is a HUGE NOOOO.

I was actually going to quote you some passages from the old European books on coaching but I can do even better and make it more particularly topic relevant.

I’ve actually got a very good book which I bought in America. Called Knights of the Whip (Stagecoach days in Oregon) by Gary and Gloria Meier. It’s about the opening of Oregon by the pioneers and specifically about the brave drivers who were known as Knights of the Whip who opened up the trails and drove the treacherous stagecoach route from Sacremento to Portland.

Its full of old photos of the drivers and coaches and horses from that era. I’ll quote you a passage from it:

Without doubt, the stage driver’s whip was his chief pride and joy. They were custom made for each driver, purchased with his own money, and maintained in the condition that suited his own artistic taste. It should be said here, and with emphasis, that the horses were NEVER struck with the whip. It was a firm rule of the stage company that they must not be. Any driver fool enough to hit a horse would lose all respect from his peers, and would be fired. Horses used by the stage company were intensely proud, spirited animals. To beat them would break their spirit and cause them to lose that certain mystique of pride, power and teamwork which was essential for pulling heavily laden coaches over rough terrain for long distances." from Knights of the Whip - Gary and Gloria Meier

So despite the above assertion, EVERYONE doesn’t slap the reins on the horse’s backsides at some point or other. I HATE it and have NEVER done it EVER and can’t begin to think why I would ever want to .

Thomas, thanks for the reference. Very interesting.

I realize the Western Movies had actors. My point was that since many people have seen these old westerns, I had wondered if that is why some people think it is all right to slap the horses with the reins.

I did some surfing this morning and found some clips from Westerns. These show the driver slapping the reins and yelling, “Ha” to the horses, an interesting command. These show no whip at all held by the driver, but they all have a rifle or a person with a rifle nearby.

Thought this would help us remember what we used to see on Westerns, wrong as Thomas pointed out, but very prevalent in the movies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqdIy0HtMt4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqdIy0HtMt4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAaTV-pwYBA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo4I5rsAPUs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJBXOl8CGdw&feature=related

The last person I corrected for doing that was with a

“OI! Who do you think you are? John Wayne?”

Trust me I do know that it’s always in films. Same in English period dramas too when the coachman urges the horses on into a furious canter to get away from the baddie highwayman.

We just don’t have the injuns :wink:

Dear Thomas 1,
I hope you’re not suffering too much from the snow where you are :lol: and I hope you had a Happy New Year

Anyways, back to the subject of Western Films and driving, you seem to have done a lot of film work, how interesting :confused: Which films where you the horse master of ?
Where they Westerns or more of the English style ?
Years ago in Cornwall UK not only did my family own and drive a covered wagon, but my father was the top western rider of the UK for 6 years running, yes I know that had nothing to do with driving :no:
BUT he was also a horse master for several films in the UK including “Disciples of Death” staring Mike Raven (oh my God that film was so bad that it’s really good !!), and “Malachi’s Cove” starring Donald Pleasence :winkgrin:
Now in all that time I can remember no whips AT ALL or slapping of reins, , we never needed to, you see the Western tradition of riding is practical, you do not control the horse - as in the English style - you trust and work with the horse, you have to if you are roping cattle, there is no hand free for a whip, just one hand to use the rope and the other to hang on for dear life, for heavens sake, the horses knew what to do :wink:
As the horses in the old Wild West days were mulity purpose, they were also driving horses, they had to be :yes:
Mind you dear Doris Day used a whip ( or it looked like it) in the film Calamity Jane, whist singing the song “Whip Crack Away” but I don’t think she did really, she’s such a softy, bless her :lol: It’s as you say acting,and the way they cut or edit the film :smiley:
So I think the old Westerns more or less stick to the truth, well as you well know that’s not really true either as many of them were filmed in Spain :yes:
As for Indians… well there are plenty of them in the UK, both from India and from the US, maybe not where you live but they sure are where I do and I know of a whole valley full of people living in Wales with horses and teepees, they’ve been there for years !!!

Ari, I think the topic was using whips for driving, not for riding.

I love the films where the stage coach drivers gets up on his box and yells and thumps the reins on the horses rumps-- and then you see the second pair of lines going into the footbox through a cut out. :lol:

You couldn’t hold a whip if you needed to keep your gun hand free. Simple logic. :lol:

Plus those horses were worked every day of their lives, knew the routine, and were guided with reins and voice. Just look back at any early 1900’s photos of American casual daily drivers…and you don’t see any whips. Just “job” those reins and the horse knows to go. “Jobbing” was the term used for flicking the reins - wasn’t necessarily done to hit the horse on the rump, but more to push (if I can use that term) or ripple the reins forward so the horse knew to move off, go forward, or go faster. Strange, but true.

Most casual, work-a-day people didn’t see the need for a whip on the work-a-day driving horse. And most horses didn’t need them. Mules were a different story - which is by the mule skinner carried a bull whip, and which is why the mule skinner was called the mule skinner. That whip could flay the hide off an elephant.

So… Hollywood wasn’t off the record for how horses in the west were used, or were used to be used. Flick the reins, use the voice, keep the gun hand free.

And now you know. :wink:

BTW - you only ever saw a set of reins going through a hidden hole in the box when they were shooting a “driverless” runaway scenes. Not ever when a driver was guiding the team for regular shots.

[QUOTE=gothedistance;4598481]
You couldn’t hold a whip if you needed to keep your gun hand free. Simple logic. :lol:[/QUOTE] :yes: It’s bad enough poking your box seat passenger in the face with the whip… shooting his head off at the same time would be a little well… unfriendly :wink:

It’s VERY rare I ever use my whip or even take it out of it’s whip holder. Tends to be for photos, signalling to cars (yes I do traditional signalling), getting one of my neighbours collies when it flies out barking at the horses, or smacking on car roofs if they pass dangerously close!

I was asked why I didn’t always carry it at a Junior Whips camp and said “Because I can’t manage my gun if a highwayman comes out”. I never expected them to treat it as anything but a joke but a little girl went all wide eyed and said “Really?”. So quick as a flash I said “No, it’s so I can wave to people”

Just “job” those reins and the horse knows to go. “Jobbing” was the term used for flicking the reins - wasn’t necessarily done to hit the horse on the rump, but more to push (if I can use that term) or ripple the reins forward so the horse knew to move off, go forward, or go faster. Strange, but true.
That’s another of those habits I consider “sloppy”. I’m quite well known and oft quoted for saying to someone quite well known “Well if you can’t handle the reins properly, just jiggle them about a bit”

BTW - you only ever saw a set of reins going through a hidden hole in the box when they were shooting a “driverless” runaway scenes. Not ever when a driver was guiding the team for regular shots.
I’ve done film work driving with 2 pairs of reins. One pair going to me and a dummy set to the actor sitting on the box seat “jiggling them about a bit” I’ve driven that way often from the back step or over the top of the actor. Sometimes, when you look carefully, you can often see an extra set of reins going to the horse.

I’ve said before though that when I watch films with driving on I study in laborious detail what’s happening and my wife complains that I provide a running commentary on that while she’s trying to follow the plot.

[quote=Thomas_1;4598880]
:yes: It’s bad enough poking your box seat passenger in the face with the whip… shooting his head off at the same time would be a little well… unfriendly ;)[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Thanks for the morning howler. That was classic!!!

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4597165]
The last person I corrected for doing that was with a

“OI! Who do you think you are? John Wayne?”

Trust me I do know that it’s always in films. Same in English period dramas too when the coachman urges the horses on into a furious canter to get away from the baddie highwayman.

We just don’t have the injuns ;)[/QUOTE]
LMYAO!:lol:
Question is Thomas do your horses gallop across 3 desert states without getting sweaty or tired, then just have one rein draped over a hitch rail outside of a saloon?:cool:

Can you’re English movie horses be shot off of all day long with guns that never need to be reloaded?:cool:

Seems the American western movie horses are best for that:yes:

By the way, did anybody know that famous palomino Trigger was in fact a Thoroughbred?:yes:

[QUOTE=NoBSshoer;4598988]
LMYAO!:lol:
Question is Thomas do your horses gallop across 3 desert states without getting sweaty or tired, then just have one rein draped over a hitch rail outside of a saloon?:cool:

Can you’re English movie horses be shot off of all day long with guns that never need to be reloaded?:cool:

Seems the American western movie horses are best for that:yes:

By the way, did anybody know that famous palomino Trigger was in fact a Thoroughbred?:yes:[/QUOTE]

Hey you’re asking the guy who drove Dracula to his castle with a team of 4 black horses at full pace gallop through a cemetry at midnight and with 2 virgins in the back!

The unbelievable bit was that there were 2 of them :wink:

[QUOTE=NoBSshoer;4598988]
LMYAO!:lol:
Question is Thomas do your horses gallop across 3 desert states without getting sweaty or tired, then just have one rein draped over a hitch rail outside of a saloon?:cool:

Can you’re English movie horses be shot off of all day long with guns that never need to be reloaded?:cool:

Seems the American western movie horses are best for that:yes:

By the way, did anybody know that famous palomino Trigger was in fact a Thoroughbred?:yes:[/QUOTE]

Love your post but my sources always swore to me Trigger was aTWH!!! :confused:

Check out this site–there were actually 3 Triggers–the original was a Thoroughbred cros and the third was a TWH Learn something all the time.

Ahh, they just don;t make those Great American Westerns any more. When men were men and horses and guns could go all day long. :smiley:

[QUOTE=Cartfall;4600434]
Love your post but my sources always swore to me Trigger was aTWH!!! :confused:

Check out this site–there were actually 3 Triggers–the original was a Thoroughbred cros and the third was a TWH Learn something all the time.

Ahh, they just don;t make those Great American Westerns any more. When men were men and horses and guns could go all day long. :D[/QUOTE]
Seems we can all stand corrected on the horse’s uncertain lineage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_(horse)

This is funny, because I always heard both original Trigger and Fury were American Saddlebreds! Trigger number two, was supposed to be part Saddlebred.

At that time, the Palomino breeding in Saddlebreds was being used heavily for color in the Parade Classes in the shows. All those extremely fancy silver saddles were being built to use in the show classes on the gold horses. Maybe the gold Saddlebreds without the extreme natural action, went for other uses.

He was a good looking horse, in both Trigger models, as was Fury.

Hey you’re asking the guy who drove Dracula to his castle with a team of 4 black horses at full pace gallop through a cemetry at midnight and with 2 virgins in the back!

The unbelievable bit was that there were 2 of them

Unbelieveable is right. I wonder how long it took the casting directors to find 2 virgins!

Yip

[QUOTE=Yip;4601607]
Unbelieveable is right. I wonder how long it took the casting directors to find 2 virgins!

Yip[/QUOTE]

OMG that is funny! :lol:

My Son who is a camera operator tells me lots of things. He worked for one of the As Seen on TV Trainers in the film crew - he said THAT was a real eye opener! Lots of things go on when the camera is off or is edited out, etc

Now a quiet rider or driver is boring to watch. That is why they lace a horses hind end with the reins - for the appearance of more “action”.

[QUOTE=NoBSshoer;4601188]
Seems we can all stand corrected on the horse’s uncertain lineage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_(horse)[/QUOTE]

It’s Wikipedia - I am standing by not a TB X as Wikipedia is notoriously incorrect.

http://www.royrogersworld.com/Trigger.htm

Well… from the Roy Rogers museum in Branson, MO. where Trigger ‘lives’ on and is one of their main attractions

There were three Triggers

1 Golden Cloud was a Tbd X and was also Olivia de Havilland’s mount in Robin Hood. Roy bought the horse because (a) he was so taken with the horse and (b) he quickly realized Trigger was a huge part of his film success and wanted him to be available for appearances as well as films and didn’t want him appearing with any other stars. Apparently the previous owner understood he had a ‘hot property’ as the price in 1943 was supposed to have been $2,500 which would be equivalent to $30,000 now. Roy paid in installments “just like you would a bedroom set”.

  1. Little Trigger was purchased to go on personal appearances with Roy to give Trigger a break. Said no particular breed

  2. Trigger Jr was Allen’s Gold Zephyr a registered TWH and joined the team to give the original Trigger a break

Roy apparently didn’t discuss the multiple Triggers. "He realized many of his and Trigger’s fans were children too young to understand that one horse shouldn’t be asked to keep up the same demands that Roy himself kept.