Could he have had a pasture accident or got cast in stall and got up in these last few weeks ( re when the bad behavior started), something that kinked his back perhaps?
Just a thought…your helper was standing a few feet away holding lunge line…is it possible he associates helper with being lunged asked to move off, saw helper out of corner of eye and that made him react?
Sorry, I am not saying you are not being patient. I am saying that some horses ask us to be even more patient than we think we need to be.
My guess is that this is physical or that you have missed something that scares him like a certain movement that bothers him. I would check his back and hind quarters and the saddle again. You said he seems a bit “disjointed” and that he trips some. This could be a growth thing or it could be that he is sore somewhere or that he fell down or something when turned out.
Instead of progressing with this I would go back to what he does well and stay there a while. After all you don’t want him practicing what you don’t want. You don’t want it to turn into a habit and that is what it sounds like is starting to happen. He needs to learn that something good can happen when you do this riding thing and that it is not always bad. Something triggers this behavior. If it is pain, then you have to find it and eliminate it. Then you will have to gain his confidence that it is not going to hurt.
If it is fear than you have to figure out what it is and take a different approach. If it is the movement of you going from his back to the ground then you could simulate it
with something like a broom or a mop. You gradually get him okay with being touched all over with the mop and once he relaxed about it, stroke his back with it then sweep the mop down to the ground. Then bring it back up to him, touch his back with it then sweep it down to the ground again. Do this from all sides, front and back. Bring the mop up and touch him then drop it down again, Mimic the motion of something getting off his back. This is where I would use some food so he can form a good association with this movement. You can make it a fun thing for him.
My other thought is if it is pain, then maybe when you dismount you are putting pressure on the saddle in a sore spot for that brief moment and that is what hurts and why he reacts.
I meant no disrespect. You are being patient, but maybe the horse needs even more from you. And I only say that because I have been there before!
When you get his back and withers checked, don’t forget to have his neck checked also in case he is a wobbler.
Have you lunged him with stirrups where they don’t touch his elbow and let them fly around in trot and canter?
Also if you are the one training him on the ground. You are the one disappearing onto his back.
Some say the one handling on the ground should remain the one handling on the ground and someone else is the one to get on. Good luck finding someone else to get on after what you have described. It won’t be me!!!
Once pain is ruled out, I would also consider that you need a really experienced young horse handler on the ground as well. The two things that caught my attention were when you referenced the horse getting away from his owner (who was holding him) and bucking you off; then you mentioned that the holder/owner was standing a few feet away from him when you first went to dismount after your last ride.
A good ground person is your lifeline when starting youngsters, and you want someone on the ground that is not afraid to dig their heels in and do everything possible to keep you safe as a rider. You also want someone that is quick to react and aware of/ready for potentials issues. When you’re standing a few feet away, it’s hard to get to the horse, or have a chance of getting to the horse, before something happens.
My husband and I are not pros, but we’ve started a couple of ponies and horses, the most recent being a 3-year-old Dutch harness horse (who is getting very light riding this summer to complement intermittent long lining work ~ I hate doing too many circles with the young ones). We noticed while putting weight on his back that he was a little nervous about things over his head, so we anticipated that mounting/dismounting might seem scary for him and addressed it in our groundwork, getting him desensitized to motion above and behind him.
When my husband went to first get on him, I was on the ground with helmet, gloves, and good work boots on, and when he (the horse) went to scoot a little during the first mount, I had a good hold on him (halter over bridle with lunge line) and gave him a firm “whoa” command…he stopped, sighed, and that was it. He’s been great since. But there was that moment–when he pushed into me going forward and I had to push back, get my balance, and hang on for a sec–in which a lot of people would have done the opposite and let go.
I don’t know this horse’s owner; she may be already providing this type of handling, but my guess is that she may be a bit intimidated by the horse’s behavior (it would be easy to be!), which is not the best combination for either your safety or his safety/training.
He’s 3 and immature. I’ve had two that bolted when getting off and several that were tough to get on. A good grounds person is critical. For now. Go back to ground work and I would end on a good note and back off for a while before getting on him again. Work in a round pen with a few people standing on the rails above him. I also pony my horses a lot. It helps get them used to someone above them. I then typically did not make mine stand but we walked off in a circle while I got off. When they bolted, my handle could control it and turn them but none of mine sound as bad as this guy is being.
This could be pain. So really rule that out…with X-rays. It could also just be a tantrum/fear with an over reaction. Hopefully it’s fixable what ever it is.
If pain is ruled out send him to a cowboy. Who really wants to get hurt on a horse like this. Soft and slow doesn’t seem to be working. I’m down in South Florida and we have an amazing cowboy who in about 60 days will have any horse broke. A lot of hunter/jumper barns use him with great results.
I’ve seen this a few times and I think the problem is that having a rider come off is a pretty traumatic event for a young horse.
So you have to make sure to never fall off until they are broke 
If it happens more than once then they can also anticipate the part of the ride where the rider comes off and it all gets scary so it contributes to nervousness.
Generally there is a motion or event or combination of those things that reminds the horse of the time the rider came off- this sound happened and then I got scared- or first this gesture then I got scared- and of course the reasoning is not perfectly cause and effect .
What I have done with the sacking is to look for the hole- the gesture or movement or sound that will get a bit of a fear reaction like an ear back or head up and then desensitise that by repeating it until the horse is completely relaxed and then get in the saddle and do the same thing, wave an arm, lean back , shift weight , do all those things…at a halt and look for the fear reaction and then repeat right there until horse is relaxed.
Same with getting on and off, but much harder . Better in a round pen, a little safer. As you mount and dismount look for the specific gesture or event that makes him nervous and then desensitise to that specific event.
It helps to put a great big whoa on them so if (when) they do loose their cookies you can get them to stand and think a minute about how they didn’t die. So when you are riding on the lunge , whoa a hundred times at a walk and trot so when you need it you have a whoa.
This is a tough one because what you essentially have to do is get a horse broke to a rider falling off, no biggie…without getting killed.
Appreciating all the feedback.
I think the trouble is, I’m realizing that in this case, aside from ruling out every possible pain-related issue, we have pretty much covered all our bases.
Owner has suggested a cowboy because she is worried about me getting hurt. Realistically, aside from the concern about dismounting, I can honestly sit pretty much anything. I have ridden a lot of young horses and horses with behavioural problems. My biggest concern is that I don’t think he just needs to be “bucked out” - this behaviour seems to me to be very atypical and I think that putting a cowboy on to muscle him around and sit it out will only exacerbate the issue.
The owner has (fortunately) agreed to back off until spring, continuing with light groundwork - then we will reassess after the youngster has had a bit of time to mature. If he has had a bit of a scare from having me (and the previous rider) come off, then hopefully he can have enough positive work on the ground in the meantime to “reset” his brain for when we try again in the spring.
He doesn’t need to be “bucked out”…but he does need to change his reaction…whether it is pain or not. The explosive bolt, buck overreaction is just not acceptable. Letting you know something hurts…yes…small spook…sure…but the reaction you are describing is over the top.
I would have some concerns about him pulling it out at other times too.
Glad he is getting a bit more time…but sometimes it is better to get to the root of this problem before they get stronger.
Rule out pain…but then I do think something needs to be done with him to get over the overreaction. And for that…I’d send him to someone who is good with that sort of issue.
With your repeated mention of him tripping behind and being uncoordinated in general, I second the recommendation to check him for wobblers. I agree with you that you need to make sure he’s okay before pursuing the cowboy route. Also, if everything checks out okay, some of these warmbloods mature very slowly and more time to grow and mature could help a lot. All that being said, it’s not worth getting hurt over so please be careful. Injuries from these youngsters can stay with you a long time…ask me how I know!
We used a bag of tortilla chips when our guy used to bolt when my daughter was mounting him as a 3 year old. The wonderful crunchy chips blocked out all other noise and made him only think of eating more chips. After a few sessions, he didn’t need the chips at home. He still needed them at shows until he was about 4 1/2.
Bucking him out will ruin him for sure. Why let him practice what you don’t want?
I would go back to ground driving him.
I actually have someone feed them treats the first couple of times I get on. Works well for me.
[QUOTE=LookmaNohands;8258481]
Bucking him out will ruin him for sure. Why let him practice what you don’t want?
I would go back to ground driving him.
I actually have someone feed them treats the first couple of times I get on. Works well for me.[/QUOTE]
My friends horse was great a ground driving but would nearly bolt through the fence when mounted. She’s jumping 2’6 courses now after his stint with Pepe. I don’t get how that would necessarily ruin the horse. Corey was very much a flight risk at any moment which was very dangerous.
My old guy was always a bit nervous for dismounting while at the halt. He was an OTTB so I attributed it to that but I imagine he’s the type of horse that could’ve wound up this way. He has exemplary manners but can be nervous if a novice handles him & isn’t soft with him. The first time I fell off of this horse he bolted & came galloping back quivering.
So, I’d echo the ponying thoughts. Pony him, then pony him while ridden, then try dismounting. Perhaps he needs some reassurance. I wouldn’t wait until spring to address this type of issue.
A lot of insightful experiences on this thread.
IMO- (after you rule out pain) you need to try to get to the bottom of this, even if it is just getting on and right back off with no reaction from him.
“If” it is a disobedience behavior, he’s going to come back bigger and stronger as a four year old. I agree with letting him grow up and waiting for much additional work until spring.
I also agree with you need to rethink how you are using a ground person. It’s easy to arm chair quarterback but it seems like some of these situations could have been minimized with a good ground person.
[QUOTE=NancyM;8252362]
Sounds like he needs blinkers. Just French cup, to shield the view of the rider from his eye. It’s a band aid solution, but in the long run, he will become more accustomed to the FEEL of being ridden, and relax about that, if he can’t SEE the thing that is scaring him, the SIGHT of the rider. While using this band aid solution, you have the chance to show him how be ridden, to respond adequately to the cues you give him, and reward him for that. He begins to understand what you want from him. When he is secure in that knowledge, and comfortable with being ridden with the blinkers, you can start to reduce the size of the blinkers, to “cheaters” or “no see backs”, smaller than French cups. He can see more. He can see you at times, if he turns his head a bit. When he becomes comfortable with that, you can probably remove the blinkers entirely, and he will be OK.
I had one who was like this, bolted the first time I rode him in an open arena. And wouldn’t let anyone come near him on the ground either. A race prospect, coming 2 yrs old. Any time I moved on him, he would bolt again. I was on his back for an hour and a half, because I could not get off. I did not want to get off during a bolt or throw myself to the ground from speed. So I stayed on. But any attempt to get him near a handler on the ground resulted again in a bolt, OR, he was going to throw himself over backwards if held. So, eventually, I got him back to a stall (it took two tries to get him back to the barn, a bolt had to be aimed back into the arena the first time) and into a stall, so that I could get OFF. He needed blinkers. The blinkers helped him to relax, allow the riding, until he got “broke” enough to ride without them.
Also, riding with some atravet will help also to get you through those first few rides with less stress on his part. Let him experience some stress free riding sessions. Not enough to make him “sleepy”, just enough to reduce his stress, take the fight out of him, let him relax. Then wean him off it in the coming weeks, as the two of you experience successful and stress free rides.[/QUOTE]
The stall idea - this is something I have done with a difficult horse for mounting and dismounting. Obviously make sure that it is a safe stall, and your ground person has an opportunity to jump out and away but it gives him less opportunity to take off.
Just practise your mounting and dismounting in there until he settles.
I would be very inclined to start with x rays of the neck and back. The saddle shifting during mounting and dismounting might cause an explosive reaction like that if he has some sort of arthritis or KS. With my kissing spines horse, I could feel a muscle tremor in his back right as I shifted my weight from the mounting block into the stirrup. He was level headed enough not to bolt but the pain from those conditions are intense and do cause explosive reactions. That would also explain why he is so good in his groundwork and so unpredictable under saddle. Good luck with him!
[QUOTE=caryledee;8258813]
I would be very inclined to start with x rays of the neck and back. The saddle shifting during mounting and dismounting might cause an explosive reaction like that if he has some sort of arthritis or KS. With my kissing spines horse, I could feel a muscle tremor in his back right as I shifted my weight from the mounting block into the stirrup. He was level headed enough not to bolt but the pain from those conditions are intense and do cause explosive reactions. That would also explain why he is so good in his groundwork and so unpredictable under saddle. Good luck with him![/QUOTE]
I have a 7 year old TB who was recently diagnosed with kissing spines after issues while being mounted. KS can cause an ‘electrical shock’ reaction. A set of spinal radiographs combined with clinical signs led us to the diagnosis of KS in T14-15 and T16-17. Right under the saddle, and in an area that is pulled to the side when mounting or dismounting, pinching the interspinous nerves.
I agree with others about trying to rule out pain sources first. The blinkers idea is pretty fascinating, though. Great information here on this thread. Good luck.
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