Spooking/bolting during dismount

[_Tradewind]

Not sure where to post this; there have been similar threads, but none I’ve found quite relevant enough to my own situation.

I am starting a young horse for a friend. I have started a number of young horses (11-12) previously with no (minimal) issues. This guy is a 3 year old Hanoverian; big mover, about 16.1, but still growing and quite narrow.

I started working with him because he “unshipped” the previous trainer as soon as she sat on him for the first time. This horse has had months of groundwork - lunges nicely w/t/c (both by his owner, a knowledgeable adult ammy, and a DIFFERENT trainer than the one who got on him, who elected not to get on him after a month of groundwork for reasons that are not that clear) in side reins and/or chambon (my equipment of choice). He’s been fully sacked out; he’s had a dummy on him; he’s had people lay over his back for weeks. He is a very laid back guy; he’s been owned by the same owner since he was a yearling. He has been very well handled from day one, she has loaded him on and off the trailer, he has been off property ponied through the woods etc.

I lunged him for about a week: all good. Then a couple days laying over him and being led around, then another day or two adding mounting and dismounting from the block.

He is being worked 3-4 days a week (so sometimes he is worked two days in a row, sometimes a day or two in between).

Day 1 (Riding): he was perfect. Led around on a lunge line by the owner, everything went great.

Day 2: Get on him as I had the previous day. I sit on him, and about 5 seconds later, he scoots forward (from the halt) and explodes, broncing for several minutes until the owner has to let go of the lunge line and I ultimately come off. Immediately following this, spend considerable time laying on and off him and being led around, and leave him there for the day.

Day 3: Perfect. Now being lunged at the walk. Doing walk/halt transitions. Thinks about scooting a few times, but no real reactions.

Day 4: Perfect. More being lunged at the walk with walk/halt transitions.

Day 5 (Today): Perfect. Lunged at the walk again, walk/halt transitions, very relaxed. Until…I went to dismount (as I had clearly done many times). Halted. Swung my leg over. Horse bolts and I hit the dirt.
Okay…So I get back on and walk around. Always always always reassuring with voice and pats because he seems to be reacting out of panic. Horse has some more scoots, which I manage to control by taking contact and closing my leg. He’s not stupid - this is starting to reduce his reactivity, which seems positive.

Walk around for a while until he seems calm…halt…remove feet from stirrups (quietly)…aaand explosion. Straight up, in every direction; I manage to stay on through considerable hysteria. Continue to walk around. Now my question becomes…how am I going to get off this horse??

Despite pats and encouragement during quiet walking on the lunge, horse becomes progressively more of a lunatic. Constant scoots; EVERYTHING sets him off (this is in an outdoor ring, but one that he is often turned out in), including completely unreasonable noises/movement/I have no idea. Half an hour plus of continued walking, with repeated scoots. The actual reactions become less extreme (good thing) but the frequency increases (not such a good thing).

Eventually, realizing I can’t be here all night, I have a few minutes of relatively relaxed walk, then halt - encourage him to drop his head, very carefully remove feet from stirrups, and quickly jump off (at this point, it’s safety and me getting the hell off him over dismounting slowly so as not to scare him). Again, he has a big spook/jump sideways (although not as exaggerated as the first one) and I land on my butt as I’m attempting to dismount.

Spend another few minutes laying over him and jumping off from there, but have to leave it at that (we’ve now been at this an hour and a half and it’s getting dark).

Sorry for the novel; trying to work through this. I really have no idea what is setting this horse off - I’ve never experienced behavior like this, and it is quite out of character considering how he is on the ground. Any suggestions? At this point, I’m first and foremost concerned with how to prevent the bolting during dismounting.

I rub him all over when he’s mounted (again, this sort of things has been done for weeks). Simply removing my feet from the stirrups and banging my feet/legs around is not a good strategy, since this seemed to set him off, I might not be so lucky next time.

He has a competent handler on the ground every time, and this has not been a deterrent.

I’m considering shipping him to an indoor arena (mine) so he has less to look at, and potentially walls to prevent him from going anywhere. I am less confident in trusting the fence around an outdoor ring to serve as a barrier.

I’m also concerned it is a physical discomfort/developmental issue. This is a lovely horse with good conformation, but I find he appears disjointed from front to back and his back end frequently trips when trotting on the lunge. Perhaps just needs some time to grow and mature before continuing?

Saddle fit has been checked; the saddle we were using when he had the first episode (on Day 2, when I came off) apparently fit him poorly; the saddle that has been used since fits him well.

His owner is also going to have a chiropractor look at him shortly.

Very puzzled by this situation; any suggestions would be appreciated.

[TB_or_not_TB]

I think your notion of physical discomfort should be the first thing to rule out. Extreme reactions to slow and methodical steps sounds when he is otherwise perfect sounds like a pain issue, and if you add in the tripping with the hind end, the first thing I would do is have a vet check out his back. I would be looking for kissing spine, neuro issues, potentially even a nerve issue or other abnormalities. A vet is better for this than a chiro because they can check many things at once, and many chiros are hesitant to adjust without a radiograph if there are KS or neuro symptoms. Here is an article about kissing spines that talks about why there can be explosive reactions to the condition.

You shift your weight substantially when dismounting and rock to the side which actually puts quite a bit of drag on the spine and withers. That could easily trigger pain if it’s present. Odd that it didn’t happen while mounting, but is there a chance you were more cautious while mounting and careful to really ease on and keep a good balance? Sometimes in the dismount we get careless and just heft ourselves off. I know you weren’t dismounting the first day, but you said you had a poorly fitting saddle so that could have been enough to flare up any sore areas.

If you don’t find anything on the back, I would also check his ribs. A rib out of alignment or bruised could be getting brushed when you swing your leg over or even bumped by the stirrup and cause a lot of pain. Poorly fitting saddle could also hurt a rib.

There could certainly be other causes to behavior like this, like a bad prior experience, but I would not proceed until he had a clean bill of health by a vet. It could be very dangerous for both of you, and very unfair to him if he’s hurting.

[Keg-A-Bacchus]

Well on a good note your training plan seems spot on! I agree with most likely a pain issue since you seem to have covered the training bases. It’s possible the pain from the original poor fit saddle has stayed with him but worth having a pro out to recheck everything with saddle is good. I would also have a vet/Chiro out to check for pain in back and withers. Agree to definitely stay on the ground and keep doing what you’re doing from the ground until he is cleared tack wise and physically. You could also throw in using your dummy for practiced dismounting by really whipping the legs up high as you pull it off to see if it’s a visual response. Also, try pulling on the saddle to mimic dismounting from the ground and watch him close for a pain reaction. So sorry to hear about the setback! If he’s an otherwise good guy I’d put my money on pain and then just be sure to slowly reintroduce him to dismounting when he’s cleared to ride as that sense memory can stay with him long after the pain is gone causing the same reaction. Good luck and keep us posted!

[bathsheba8542]

Second the suggestions for ruling out pain, but also wonder if your movement from one eye to the other when you’re dismounting (from his perspective, with you behind/above him in the saddle) isn’t wigging him out. No idea how to fix, but maybe a vision check? Perhaps working with a flag that moves from eye to eye behind him to become desensitized?

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=bathsheba8542;8252057]
Second the suggestions for ruling out pain, but also wonder if your movement from one eye to the other when you’re dismounting (from his perspective, with you behind/above him in the saddle) isn’t wigging him out. No idea how to fix, but maybe a vision check? Perhaps working with a flag that moves from eye to eye behind him to become desensitized?[/QUOTE]

Try a blinker hood on him so he can’t see back there?

I’d point him to solid wall when you get off him. Limits where he can go. Even if it is pain related, he doesn’t need this habit to form.

Different world, but starting a horse outside?? YOWZERS.:eek::lol:

[Countrywood]

Wow that is a problem…after ruling out pain, imo this horse needs a lot more groundwork. De sensitizing (sacking out, similar,) saddle pads flapping on and off while led around, saddle taken on and off while he stands etc.

I would enlist a helper to help with dismount. Have them hold him while you get off. But instruct the person he must stand quietly BEFORE you start to dismount. To help him to stand quietly, have the ground person lead his head very low to the ground, (almost as low as grazing) and make him stand like that. ( you can also make him stand like that while doing ground work). Only when he is standing still and quiet do you dismount.

Same for when you are riding with no helper. Leave yourself plenty of time …DO NOT dismount until he stands quietly. Ride him another hour if you have to. If he feels tense/explosive or is fidgeting, do not dismount. Lower his head, move slowly off, walk around till he is bored, then try it again.

For additional safety, even if he stands still, position him so you dismount with his head facing into the arena wall or fence. That way he literally has nowhere to go to bolt forward. Most horses are not that crazy that they will bolt right into a wall or fence…Dismount only when facing a barrier till he is reliable at dismounting for a period of time, then do it further from wall/fence and then be able to dismount in middle or arena or anyplace.

[beowulf]

That is a very generous timeframe for breaking a horse… IME once they are “sacked” they take well to being U/S… I’d be ruling out some pain, because it sounds like something is bothering him a lot.

Additionally, I like to install a “STAND STILL NO MATTER WHAT WHILE I’M MOUNTING/DISMOUNTING”… works best if you treat them at the beginning. If they move they don’t get the treat… if they stand still they do. I keep mints or ginger snaps for the OTTBs … most of them were never taught to stand still for mounting. Works really well for them.

[Countrywood]

If treats work, great, but for my horse they did not work…I did not have a dismount problem but had a mounting problem ( more common). He would not bolt at mounting block but kept dancing around, side stepping etc.

After trying treats etc with no success, I found if I pulled on reins his head amost to ground and made him stand like that till he was quiet, and said “wait” , he associated lowering head with standing still. That or backing him up a few times but imo with dismount problem I would not back up while mounted because it might lead to rearing.

Besides the dismount this horse sound anxious in general and like he is not really reliable to be asked to halt or stand or walk around…so I would do a lot of that, and of course as others suggested rule out any physical problem.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8252089]
If treats work, great, but for my horse they did not work…I did not have a dismount problem but had a mounting problem ( more common). He would not bolt at mounting block but kept dancing around, side stepping etc.

After trying treats etc with no success, I found if I pulled on reins his head amost to ground and made him stand like that till he was quiet, and said “wait” , he associated lowering head with standing still. That or backing him up a few times but imo with dismount problem I would not back up while mounted because it might lead to rearing.

Besides the dismount this horse sound anxious in general and like he is not really reliable to be asked to halt or stand or walk around…so I would do a lot of that, and of course as others suggested rule out any physical problem.[/QUOTE]

Well, you have to teach the horse the meaning of the command “stand” first – treats are meaningless if the horse doesn’t realize he only gets them after he performs a task. He may have been dancing around because he didn’t know you were asking him to stand still. Treats (and clicker training) have worked every time for me, every horse has a favorite flavor somewhere

[LookmaNohands]

Make sure your saddle fits comfortably. Most likely he is scooting from pain or tension. Get him relaxed and comfortable.

Break everything down into smaller, simpler, easier parts. Pretend you are teaching an unconfident horse to jump. You go very, slowly, build slowly and take a step or two back if they make a mistake.

And don’t ride yesterday’s horse. Deal with the horse as he is in the moment, not how he was before.

I would go back to ground driving and get him understanding the aids. Then take a lot of time putting a foot in the stirrup and taking it out again, then a little weight, then a bit more etc. Do this from BOTH sides. Don’t ever scold him. Find things to praise him for. Some of the best horses were tough at first.

Go slower. Be more patient.

[Countrywood]

Perhaps the reality is that treats don’t work for me lol…I am not a pro, just have owned several horses and had to teach basics to two greenies with issues in a row…I just am not one for training with treats but am sure can be successful for those that have a plan with the treats and follow through

[Auburn]

Most Warmbloods are very slow to mature. I believe that he is very young to be brought into work under saddle. Did you know that the last part of the horse to fully mature is the spine? I agree with having the saddle fit rechecked and an evaluation of his spine.

You might pose this question on the breeding forum. Those folks have a wealth of knowledge about starting Warmbloods and what might be causing this behavior.

Good luck and please stay safe!

Would you mind letting us know how he progresses?

[Jealoushe]

It sounds like either pain/or lack of confidence. My one guy was similar to this, not about unmounting but just in general and it took a few years of realizing he was just generally untrusting. What’s his temperament in the barn? Distant to strangers or very friendly? How is he in the trailer? Is he nervous about things near his bum? If not then it sounds most definitely like it would be pain related.

I read this really good article about kissing spine the other day - even if it’s not kissing spine the exercises and ideas I think are excellent for this type of horse.

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/02/04/help-horse-kissing-spine-goodbye/

[merrygoround]

Brings back memories. I had a horse that did this, and learned to hlt, walk on , halt walk on, and when ready to dismount kick feet out and dismount almost simultaneously. I also learned to lean forward as little as possible when doing so. Leaning forward seemed to trigger this guy, not that I tried it often.

He gradually improved but I was always aware.

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8252069]
Wow that is a problem…after ruling out pain, imo this horse needs a lot more groundwork. De sensitizing (sacking out, similar,) saddle pads flapping on and off while led around, saddle taken on and off while he stands etc.

I would enlist a helper to help with dismount. Have them hold him while you get off. But instruct the person he must stand quietly BEFORE you start to dismount. To help him to stand quietly, have the ground person lead his head very low to the ground, (almost as low as grazing) and make him stand like that. ( you can also make him stand like that while doing ground work). Only when he is standing still and quiet do you dismount.

Same for when you are riding with no helper. Leave yourself plenty of time …DO NOT dismount until he stands quietly. Ride him another hour if you have to. If he feels tense/explosive or is fidgeting, do not dismount. Lower his head, move slowly off, walk around till he is bored, then try it again.

For additional safety, even if he stands still, position him so you dismount with his head facing into the arena wall or fence. That way he literally has nowhere to go to bolt forward. Most horses are not that crazy that they will bolt right into a wall or fence…Dismount only when facing a barrier till he is reliable at dismounting for a period of time, then do it further from wall/fence and then be able to dismount in middle or arena or anyplace.[/QUOTE]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Countrywood, this horse has had MONTHS of groundwork, including tons of sacking out. Like, more than any young horse I’ve ever encountered. More groundwork does not seem likely to solve the issue.

I do have a helper, as I mentioned. He is held to be mounted and dismounted. At this point, she was standing a few feet away, holding him on the lunge, so he was not held at his head when I dismounted (he IS held at his head to be mounted); however, given his extreme reaction to my dismounting, I do not know that it would be safe for the handler to have her stand immediately next to him whilst I dismount.

I never dismount until he stands quietly. Yesterday, I walked and walked and walked with repeated halt transitions (for about half an hour) until I could get him to stand still for several minutes, drop his head in a relaxed manner, and chew the bit. Only then did I attempt to get off, and this was still met with a big reaction.

The thing that points more to pain than groundwork/visual reaction to dismounting etc. is that I have dismounted the SAME way about 30 times. I spent days getting on and off him, swinging my leg over. He may have just given himself a scare for some reason yesterday, but that doesn’t really fit.

Jealoushe, on the ground this guy is not nervous about ANYTHING. He is nearly impossible to spook. He won’t bat an eye at environmental stimuli that would spook most horses. He is like a dog, he will lick you and comes over to you in his paddock to snuggle. I think, if anything, he can be a bit pushy (maybe a bit spoiled and overconfident) but still he is generally very well behaved and handled, and the behaviour under saddle doesn’t suggest attitude from a spoiled brat. The owner is shaking her head, because his behaviour under saddle is SO inconsistent with his personality on the ground.

As far as I or the owner knows, this horse has had no bad experiences. It’s possible something happened during his month of groundwork at the western trainer’s, but the owner saw the trainer work with him repeatedly and really liked her quiet approach, and we were not told that there had been any issues.

I have suggested to the owner that we give him the fall/winter to grow and mature, giving him the benefit of the doubt, and reassess in the spring.

[_Tradewind]

Also should mention that I am a breeder and start my own young horses. I currently have a 3 year old and two 4 year olds I am preparing to back, all three of which are much more physically mature than this guy and are more coordinated in their bodies with far less work than this guy has had. Honestly, if he was mine, I would not be starting him (I thought that the first day I lunged him - perhaps should have mentioned that to the owner but I figured, not my horse, not really my call). I would wait until fall (at a minimum) or spring to see how he matures.

For those who suggested vision check, I consulted my coach this morning on the issue and she also recommended this. Definitely will put that on the list of things to investigate.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I also suggest trying a blinker hood, or the Dy’on blinkers which look a lot more subtle!

I have been riding an Arabian gelding who was going nowhere with his training because of sudden bolting. He was startling and shying from stuff in front of him or to his side, but there would be these sudden “out of the blue” bolts. I finally figured out that he bolted ONLY when something scary “hit” a certain part of his vision, always to the rear (dismounting could be stressful to me because I did not know when he would spook.)

I got the Dy’on blinkers, put them on his bridle, and now he only spooks at things I can see, things in front of him or to his side. It has been an amazing change and everyone is happy. Once I get him past something scary he calms down because he can’t see it in the back corner of his eye. Now real training can begin!

[NancyM]

Sounds like he needs blinkers. Just French cup, to shield the view of the rider from his eye. It’s a band aid solution, but in the long run, he will become more accustomed to the FEEL of being ridden, and relax about that, if he can’t SEE the thing that is scaring him, the SIGHT of the rider. While using this band aid solution, you have the chance to show him how be ridden, to respond adequately to the cues you give him, and reward him for that. He begins to understand what you want from him. When he is secure in that knowledge, and comfortable with being ridden with the blinkers, you can start to reduce the size of the blinkers, to “cheaters” or “no see backs”, smaller than French cups. He can see more. He can see you at times, if he turns his head a bit. When he becomes comfortable with that, you can probably remove the blinkers entirely, and he will be OK.

I had one who was like this, bolted the first time I rode him in an open arena. And wouldn’t let anyone come near him on the ground either. A race prospect, coming 2 yrs old. Any time I moved on him, he would bolt again. I was on his back for an hour and a half, because I could not get off. I did not want to get off during a bolt or throw myself to the ground from speed. So I stayed on. But any attempt to get him near a handler on the ground resulted again in a bolt, OR, he was going to throw himself over backwards if held. So, eventually, I got him back to a stall (it took two tries to get him back to the barn, a bolt had to be aimed back into the arena the first time) and into a stall, so that I could get OFF. He needed blinkers. The blinkers helped him to relax, allow the riding, until he got “broke” enough to ride without them.

Also, riding with some atravet will help also to get you through those first few rides with less stress on his part. Let him experience some stress free riding sessions. Not enough to make him “sleepy”, just enough to reduce his stress, take the fight out of him, let him relax. Then wean him off it in the coming weeks, as the two of you experience successful and stress free rides.

[_Tradewind]

Interesting suggestion of blinkers; I have never used these, I will look into this further.

Lookmanohands - does it sound to you like I am not being patient or that I am rushing this horse? Interesting comment. It seems to me that I am being quite patient and going very slowly. I have not punished this horse once for this behaviour. I have not pushed him at any point when I did not feel he was handling the task I asked of him easily and in a relaxed manner. When he is not exploding, he is totally laid back (lazy, even) and stands quietly whenever I ask him to stand.

At this point, I think this goes beyond just waiting patiently and progressing slowly - there are clearly bigger issues to address here.

[enjoytheride]

There is a horse in my barn with a broken tail. Bucked a trainer off a few times before the vet discovered it and said that was the issue. Big pasture ornament.

Also have another horse that took a cowboy 4 months to break but she would still forget you were up there and explode. Horse came from a bad start and is also a big pasture ornament.

Maybe send him to someone who can buck him out? A normal horse should not still be having problems with someone dismounting and I would think blinkers would cover up an issue that would get someone hurt.