Spooks messing with my brain

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Like I said- I feel your pain. The mare I’m selling is TRULY lovely. Very well schooled. She’s also mostly a kick ride - not hot. But… like the one you are dealing with, when her brain decides she’s frightened of something, it doesn’t matter how wet that saddle blanket is… it’s a challenge to deal with her. I’ve had plenty of rides where I can push her up between leg and hand, and make her do shoulder in, or flex and counter flex, and get her to go past a shadowy corner of an arena, or something else that is just triggering her brain, and that she is being spooky about. But when we are outside of the arena and she’s confronted with something that triggers her spooky side, I just don’t feel confident about pushing her through it anymore. She’s just a big challenge. And… to be honest … I really don’t like riding a horse that’s a bit slow and a kick ride in general… but also reactive and spooky at stuff. Because then you do periodically get that weird sort of sudden, out of character, evasiveness. Which can manifest as spinning or rearing. In my mare’s case… it’s because she isn’t a ‘forward’ thinker… so when acute stress happens, she doesn’t have a forward type reaction. And kicking the hell out of a horse who is thinking “I’m scared and I want to rear to avoid the scary thing!” - well - I don’t like sitting on something like that. At all. I’d take a hottter, but forward thinking horse, happily.

I’m fortunate… this mare is by far my most marketable horse, and it’s a seller’s market, and she can easily transition to being a GREAT dressage horse for someone, who only hacks very occasionally in specific situations. I did some serious soul searching before I made the call to put her on the market. And I asked myself what I REALLY want to spend my time doing in the next year with my riding, that will bring me the most amount of joy. My answer was to do LOTS of long hacks and enjoy my farm and the neighboring hay fields, and also, to trailer out a lot for jump lessons and cross country schooling with a great coach I’m having a lot of fun riding with. And to ride with my kiddo - to hack out together. When I a thought about all that, I realized that I really could go in search of a nice OTTB as soon as my warmblood sells, and find a horse that will fit my current wishlist just fine. Even if it’s green, and it takes a while to get it schooled to the point that our dressage and general flatwork is anywhere close to as nice as the horse I’m selling. I’ve got plenty of time. The question for me is really what sort of a mind a horse has. And once I really started to think about selling my current mount, and buying something that might be very green, but has a very different brain… I started feeling a distinct sense of relief, and positive and hopeful.

And that was a clear indication this was a good decision.

For you… the free lease is a definite mark in the column in favor of keeping the horse. But there certainly are other horses out there, that are available to good riders (you sound like a very competent adult ammy) for care lease situations. Maybe look hard at your goals for the next year, or two years. And also, ask yourself what brings you serious joy while in the tack. Finding a horse capable of doing 3’6” is not all that hard, in my opinion. But… finding one that is ready to go out and show at that level now? Available on free/care lease? Much more challenging. The answer might be to find something very green, but with some talent, that has a different brain, that you could bring along. And delay your showing goals by a year or 18 months. Or… maybe try and find an older horse who needs significant maintenance that costs a bit ( routine injections and special shoeing, etc), that you could lease for a year for a minimal amount plus care, and have more fun getting out and showing on. And then the owner takes it back at the end of the lease, and assumes responsibility and expense of its retirement. It sounds like either of those options might involve spending a bit more up than you currently are just to get the mount in question. It is definitely a seller’s market out there right now. So it’s tough.

One last thought. Maybe see if you can do a ride or two on a friend’s horse, or something totally different at your barn, just to get some perspective. Just to feel what it’s like again to sit on something totally different, and compare and contrast it with your current ride. I actually have a SUPER green bean at home as well - a 3 year old we are just starting now with groundwork, as well as a 21 year old, mostly retired broodmare, who I regularly hack out. Both are hotter, and less fancy in some ways than the mare I am selling (less fancy gaits). The retired broodmare can be quite hot when hacking - she’ll jig and get super excited and feel like a rocket ship ready to launch on her REALLY good days (haha)… but I keep it to a walk because of her hock arthritis. Just sitting on her regularly for the last month gave me valuable perspective, however. I vastly prefer a forward thinking horse, who jigs too much, than one who is a kick ride, but occasionally is spooky and thinks about going up when stressed. It’s night and day how much less stressful it is for me to ride my old jiggy girl. And I have so much more joy and fun working with my 3 year old greenie, even just doing ground stuff currently… because she’s pleasant and sensible, and very trainable and focused on learning and almost eager to please. She connects to people much better than the mare I am selling. It’s just a fun journey with the 3 yr old so far. Comparing those two mares to the one I’m selling really drove home how much I value a certain type of brain in a horse at this point in my life. No horse is perfect… but I know what problems I prefer to avoid. And am willing to accept the trade off of green, or less fancy gaits, or jiggy and quick… but not a rearing type.

Oh well. I hope those thoughts are of some use. I’m so sorry though - you are in a tough spot in this market. A care lease on something that is already going well MOST of the time is going to be hard to give up… especially if you really want to get out and show in the near term.

[Jackie_Cochran]

EEEEK!!!

I have run into two products that could help you all, though I don’t know about putting them on the saddle of a horse one leases.

The RS-tor Horse Rider Safety Device. www.rstor.co.uk. You have to hold it, holding it does not interfere with contact, and it gives me a feeling of security when the horse gets antsy. I did fall off a horse, but I was not holding my RS-tor in my hand, I learned my lesson there!

The Rider Grip.www.ridergrip.com. Yes, they look odd on the saddle flap, but they work a tiny bit better than the silicon full seat breeches. I no longer slide around in the saddle with these.

I feel so much more secure riding horses with these two things on my saddle.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

I don’t think you’re going to listen to me, but I’m old and I’ve been-there-done-that, so I’m going to say my piece anyway.

Don’t be like me. The older you get, the more likely you are to break instead of bounce when you hit the ground. The older you get, the more likely you are to have responsibilities that require your energy, effort, and income. And, thanks to those responsibilities, most of us aren’t anywhere close to the state of riding fitness we were in when we actually had the free time to spend hours in the saddle nearly every day of the week (which I did up through my college years).

For a while as an adult, I rode a horse (not mine) who was great 99% of the time, but who would occasionally randomly spook and spin over some (imaginary?) thing. I was riding along the rail in the arena at a trot one day and boom, spook-spin-teleport. I bounced off the arena rail and hit the ground. 5+ broken ribs (the ER doctor said he thought there were probably a couple more in a shadowy part of the x-ray, but once you got up to 5 you could quit counting. )

I was off work for a month - some of that without pay. I had to call my Mom and Dad (fortunately retired at that point) and ask them to come stay with me to take care of the horses, dogs, cats, and me. Thankfully, my kids were grown and gone.

And if you think falling off affects your confidence, wait until you fall off and have a serious injury. When I started back riding, on my own horse, some days the best I could do was stand at the mounting block and put my foot in and out of the stirrup. Some days I managed to get on and take 4-5 steps away from the mounting block before I had to get off and go back to the barn.

Don’t be like me.

[wanderinglemon]

Since you would really like to continue with this horse, I would recommend doing some ground work. The TRT method and other methods that are similar emphasize a horse finding calmness and rest in themselves. It has worked wonders with my spooky horse that did the spin and dump thing twice in one month!

[awaywego]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom makes some excellent points about really thinking about what you enjoy and what your goals are. I similiarly have a spooky-at-home but awesome-at-shows horse. It is, at best, maddening more often than not.

If he was my only horse, it would be much harder for me. I’m lucky that he is not, and it makes me appreciate my others for who they are - and also who they are not If your main goal and joy is showing, then maybe this horse is the best deal out there for you right now.

I always say I can ride a hot horse, but I don’t enjoy that ride. Maybe what you’re finding is that you can ride this horse but you don’t enjoy it.

[Against_All_Odds2]

Going to a BB to answer is enough, enough would be my answer.

I’d dump the lease and suck it up for my family (btdt). Something will come along

[TheDBYC]

@KingoftheRoad

He’s 10, I think. The spooks aren’t new, although over top of the jump is. I’m just gobsmacked that we’re (successfully) jumping a 3’3" vertical, and he’s looking off into the distance for a tiny deer…

Hmm. Do you know much about his training background? Have other people run into the same issue riding the horse? Does he generally seem more attached to other horses than he is interested in humans?

It sounds to me like he is just not fully focused on the rider and his tasks. He can’t click into the zone. Could be any number of reasons for it. I’ve met horses: 1) whose native disposition tends towards the anxious & whose early training was done by someone who may have been a goof rider but lacking a sufficiently confident & reassuring energy for him to lean into so he could build his own confidence. 2) for whom the new barn situation represents such an incredible departure from the horse’s normal up to that point that he turns inward, away from humans, & becomes all consumed with his place in the new herd to sooth his need for security. If you think about it, for a horse to work alone with a rider in an arena, come into the barn for grooming, etc, requires that he accept humans as somewhat weird-looking but reliable personal safety allies. A horse that can’t do that for whatever reason is going to be a horse on permanent yellow alert & always looking around himself for the next possible threat. 3) who were experiencing a sub-clinical medical issue - failing eyesight, hearing, & in one case, a subtle but gradually worsening cervical spine issue. 4) and some horses who have soured on their job & know how to get a rider’s number in a quick & spectacular fashion.

[luv2lope]

I’m with everyone in the “time to move on” camp.

This is not just a matter of if, but when. You’ve been lucky so far, but there is going to be a day where you are off your A Game and you get hurt.

There is a boarder at my barn who has a spooky puke of a horse. The horse would spook when getting on and off it, and take off. She went to get on, horse spooked (surprise), she came down hard on her feet and broke her ankle-- it was pretty nasty as the bone came through the skin. 4 surgeries later (including pins, skin and muscle grafting), I heard that she might never have feeling in that foot again.

As I get older, I refuse to get on any horse that could possibly give me a bronco ride, or put me in a position that I could get seriously hurt-- it’s just not worth it and I don’t need to prove my riding abilities to myself or anyone else.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

A couple of things caught my eye in the OP.

It appears to me from your post that the spooks tend to occur after you’ve jumped for sometime .

How old is this horse?

He may have some arthritic issues or some soreness going on which would get worse the longer you ride and jump.

Check your saddle fit. Again it may be something that doesn’t appear to bother him when you start out but becomes painful the longer you rise.

Horses spook away from pain, so you may be right in thinking he spooked from a deer, but he could also have spooked because of pain/discomfort.

You may also want to consider his age/condition when you ride. 45 minutes of intense flat work before jumping may be too much.

You may want to have a chiropractor or vet come out and examine him for back neck hocks to rule out pain.

Anecdote: My horse who was generally laid back and quiet started spooking and bolting though not out of control for no apparent reason. It was two things. Saddle needed adjusting and he had some arthritic changes in his back .

When I made the needed adjustments and addressed his back issues he went back to his usual self and stopped spooking.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

[173north]

I feel you on the care lease situation. I was riding a super fun, made 3’3 - 3’6 jumper type over the winter for just expenses… because he was super strong and liked to bolt after the fence. It didn’t really phase me, but he was NOT a horse for everyone and if he was safer/easier, he wouldn’t have been a free lease.

If you really want to stick with this horse, maybe time to invest in a MIPS helmet, air vest, safety stirrups, and some serious sticky spray. I also agree with a vet workup for the horse - has he always been this spooky? Maybe it’s a vision issue or vitamin deficiency, or a pain reaction. Personally, I’d rather pop around 2’6 on a lesson horse until another ride comes along than ride a horse that scares me or might injure me. It just comes down to your personal risk v reward calculation.

[KingoftheRoad]

Thank you for these thoughts! This jump spook was at the end of a 45 minute lesson, so about 25 minutes of flat work, and then 20 of jumping. 45 minutes of flat work is only for the days I’m not jumping, but point well taken. And you’re right, the last couple of times have been toward the end of the ride. First time he dumped me was 60 seconds after I got on, when he saw a deer in the woods next to the ring…I wonder if there may be multiple causes. I think he’s about 10 years old…but good things to check.

[IPEsq]

@wanderinglemon

Since you would really like to continue with this horse, I would recommend doing some ground work. The TRT method and other methods that are similar emphasize a horse finding calmness and rest in themselves. It has worked wonders with my spooky horse that did the spin and dump thing twice in one month!

I second this. My horse only spooks at things outside the arena. Thankfully, his default spook is a stop. But he has spun once with me on the trail (spun hard, took one step, stopped because that was way too much work). And done a couple brief sideways teleports. I can stick a lot of things, but I was coming off of another horse with huge explosive spooks. Which were actually pretty easy to sit because he tended to go in straight lines, but sometimes there’d be a lot of air under my butt from how high we went off the ground. And he had other issues that really hit my confidence. New horse has 100% helped my confidence in the arena and jumping. But I needed to help him about the monsters outside the ring. Although I was not that worried about falling off, I was riding tense in general, and in my case, having him thinking backwards all the time as he’s looking way off in the distance does not help me establish a good canter or find safe distances to jumps.

The TRT method type groundwork really helped him learn to process the things that made him anxious and uncomfortable and move on. It helped him not just increase his spook threshold some but learn to stay under it and reset rather than build tension. He tends to hate groundwork although can be more confident in hand. This method helps you find a bridge between the groundwork skills and using those techniques under saddle. I spent a lot of time this winter learning to deal with things outside the ring, hacking out, getting him away from the other horses, going to shows with lots of people on the sides of the ring and dogs and flags and stuff. Interestingly, farm equipment and vehicles don’t bother him at all. But someone on foot outside of the ring is very suspicious. Now we are at a new place and working on having cows as neighbors.

We learned to communicate with each other in a way that wasn’t one of us taking over, which is often what the just get him on the aids techniques are about. You can find a way to reassure him but he’s got to be responsible for himself at the end of the day. And not in a way that means bye you can be eaten first!

Going through this process has helped him a lot and also gotten me out of my middle aged I can’t afford to get hurt anxiety. Of course the more I relax versus think, Is X over there going to be the thing he spooks at today?, the more that helps him too. Like, I was always on high alert for those deer to try to be ahead of him. I’m not saying I am not observant, but I’m not hypervigilant anymore and neither is he.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Ya’ll are making me want to learn more about the TRT method. I’m definitely still selling spooky big mare… but am immersed in the groundwork stages with the 3 year old. Perhaps it would be interesting to read a good resource concerning the TRT method right now, and give me more ideas of stuff to do on the ground with her all summer? We are working on lunging and planning on moving on to ground driving soon.

Part of the joy of this baby horse is really focusing on making sure she’s a good citizen for life. She’s got a great brain… but putting in plenty of time on solid groundwork at this stage sure won’t hurt

[mika0116]

solid citizens IMO don’t have an unpredictable spook that allows for a rider of 20+ years to be deposited on the ground before they even have a chance to diffuse/ stay in the tack.

You say he’s a confidence builder over fences (when he isn’t spooking, which seems statistically ‘rare’, but you’re spending every ride wondering if “now, now, now, how about now” is when the next spook will happen). By writing this post, he’s no longer that.

As strangers who don’t know you from Adam, we can only infer by your intention to ask for help that perhaps if you feel this strongly, the time’s up on this relationship. Horses are too expensive, too time consuming, and at times too much of a safety risk to have a partner that no longer suits our needs (physically, psychologically, etc.).

I rode a horse similar to this but with a stop rather than a spook. I thought he was the bees knees when he was “good” which was 90% of the time, but his unpredictable stop (later diagnosed as a career ending lingering injury) made him really un-fun to ride. I was always “on” kicking down past distances to fences to keep him “focused”.

Heart mare was the lease after him, she was quirky, but her quirks worked really well with mine (super hot off aids, especially seat - she hates unbalanced riders so my dressage loving self turned jumper LOVED that I could turn rollbacks with eyes and weight alone). I never once had that same lingering worry as I did with my talented, but unpredictable stopper. Mare could also out-jump him by a foot+. 3 years later I am still annoyed with myself for not taking mare sooner and realizing it’s so nice to mentally ENJOY riding and focus on goals and skills while feeling rather relaxed.

[NancyM]

Well I think that there are a lot of good points here already about this. But I will suggest full cup blinkers to try, after an examination from a vet for health/soundness/vision problems that may not have been yet identified. Sometimes with a horse who has a bad spook in him sees less, he can relax. Because he sees less that scares him. If he can be ridden like this, and can experience relaxation during the ride, he may extend that into trust in his rider later, without the blinkers, when you take them off again. Full cup blinkers “force” the horse to rely on his rider to guide him, because he can only see forward, his view is limited. The rider must be his eyes, guide him. It’s a big responsibility for the rider, because you can’t let him down, you must guide him accurately. By doing that, he gains trust in you, IF nothing bad happens to him due to a mistake on your part.

I have one with a spook like this, and the full cup blinkers made us both heave a sigh of relief, and he improved substantially. I don’t ride him any more though, he just wasn’t a good enough jumper for my needs, so he’s just a lawnmower now. A pretty lawnmower. But I won’t move him on to someone else for a non-jumping career. Because he’s still the same horse.

[beowulf]

@mika0116

solid citizens IMO don’t have an unpredictable spook that allows for a rider of 20+ years to be deposited on the ground before they even have a chance to diffuse/ stay in the tack.

Seriously!

There’s WAY too many horses out there to deal with a horse who pulls the “Spin And Dump” move - especially immediately within landing at a fence. That is not a cheeky horse. That’s a horse that has learned to lawn dart its riders.

Pass! He’s not your horse, you don’t need to pursue diagnosis.

[wanderinglemon]

Virginia_Horse_Mom, I learned about it from my trainer, who I also follow on Patreon. She has videos that walk through the method step-by-step and then videos of her using it on different horses, including babies.

Hackett Equine is creating tutorial videos and training extras | Patreon

Edited to add, there are three different pricing tiers, but the middle one is the one that includes all the groundwork stuff.

[Horselove5]

I second Hackett videos - she’s really good at explaining stuffs.
Earlier in this thread, I asked whether magnesium doesn’t help and perhaps I should elaborate more. My 4yo WB has had the same issue with spooking and spinning out of nothing. He dumped me twice in the same manner before I recognized there’s an issue. I read online that this reaction can be cause by a magnesium deficiency. I then put him on SmartCalm ultra and his sudden spookiness went to almost 0… It’s either this, or his baby brain, because in general he’s very brave on the scary trail riding (always with a friend).

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

Different perspective from someone who had a horse go from dead quiet to spooky… what are you feeding him? If it’s anything with Amplify in it (Purina Ultima, Strategy, etc), change the feed. Although great for the high-performing horse, in the wrong gut, it can make them spooky and distracted…I learned that the hard way. I did a bit of poking around and noted that others said the same thing… that their horses were distracted and unable to focus or would find one thing in ring to freak out about…and couldn’t move on from whatever it was.
If you don’t want to give up on this one… and he’s on a high-performance or active feed with Amplify, try to change it up. Honestly, we went and dropped down to Omelene 100 Active Pleasure feed. Different horse after a week. We knew it wouldn’t be the right pellets forever, but while he was learning and getting an education, no need to feed him the jet fuel!