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Spooky Mare can it be her hormones?

Hunter/Jumper
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#1

So basically my daughter’s mare sees dead people…… Before I begin Im talking about my daughters horse but I am also a trainer of over 26 years just so you don’t think I’m just a
mom on a rant. But really I’m a trainer that is looking for advice!
Bought my daughter this beautiful WB mare almost 3 years ago. Now mind you she was green to showing never really had been off the farm she was born and raised on. We bring her home and she was pretty spooky off the bat. So I thought well we need to give her time to settle in big change for her. Treated for ulcers first. Did a power pack of ulcer guard and put her sulcrifate.
Still not much change.

She also started acting like the bit was shocking her. So I had vet out to check her teeth mouth etc. He did in fact find a splinter wolf tooth. So basically it was a tooth that never developed and it was like a splinter under her gum. We removed. I’d been in touch with the lady we bought her from letting her know our struggles. So I sent her back for 2-3 months for training. I would drive my daughter 4 hours on the weekends to get a lesson. The mare was decent there. Spooky but not as much as before.

Brought her home she was ok. Started showing some 2’ stuff just to get her experience (Mind you I bought her to be a children’s and then jr hunter)
But the spook never really went away.

So fast forward to fall I still researching trying to figure out. She’s a bit moody and she screams in her stall and kicks like a dinosaur. Not as horses would go by the stall but literally for no reason.

So I had vet back out check her all over we decided regumate to help maybe it’s hormonal. so go though the winter into the spring start showing, the mare is doing better has her spooks but betterish. So we move up to 2.6 going well that’s going well. Then July hits and she is off her rocker spooky again at jumps at everything she genuinely terrified. So I think ulcers so do another round of ulcer guard on her. She still was still on regumate.

Call vet back out I want to make sure I’m not missing something. Do a full exam on her. Not sore, not lame, isnt presenting ulcers I’m baffled vets baffled. But I told him about how she carries on in the stall. And he walked her up to a gelding in the barn and immediately squealed. He said she blowing through the regumate take her off of it. Put her into a hard cycle and then let’s see how she is. So we did. And for almost a week she was so much better.

So we thought has to be hormones so after that week she was good, she started seeing dead people on the regular. So then had my other vet came and I had her check her all over and flex her and then ultrasound. (I just wanted a second look again to make sure I didn’t miss something). We waited until she was being her most extra self then she came to ultra sound. She was in heat and she had a follicles at about 35. So we waited a week and rechecked to see if she ovulated them. Came back following week they were still there. At first check they were a 35 2nd check one of the 2 was at 55. She couldn’t ovulate the follicle. So we gave her a dose of estrumate to put her in a hard cycle to try to get her to release the follicle. Checked a week later it was gone and she was soooo much better again. Now on both ultrasounds the left side had some weird things going on with the follicle which given her behavior spooky issues and her dinosaur roaring she wanted to test for GCT (Granulosa-theca cell tumors). So I was like well go for it. And honestly I was hoping for it because atleast I’d maybe have a reason. Test came back normal.

My daughter is bewildered at this point. She feels like her last junior year will slip away before she can accomplish her goals. Any one that has ridden a spooky horse knows how hard it is and how defeated you feel. She was at her whits end. Mind you she 16-17 at this time. So I try to stay positive but it was ruining riding for her. It wasn’t fun. How can I can fix everyone else’s horse? I can fix all the other riders but I can’t fix my own daughter’s dang horse? I felt like a failure. I Would text the seller when things got bad. But I also didn’t want to look bad ( I know that’s stupid). So I told my daughter take a break from riding her. She has ponies that she can ride and we have a shit ton of horses here. But nothing that was supposed to be as competitive as this mare is. I subsequently at that time had a lot of young green ones in the barn.

In November she took a break from her. So now she doesn’t have a GCT, got rid of the sticky follicle, it’s winter she shoulddddd be better. So I call a friend. He’s a horse whisperer trainer, backs horses kind of guy. And I say I want you to work with my mare to try to boost her confidence. Confidence is really what I felt like she needed. She’s never comfortable in her own skin really. He started working with her 3-5 days a week. In Feb/March my daughter asked to ride her which I was happy to hear! She had been pretty good. Looks at stuff doesn’t react. Things are going pretty well. Take her to her first show in April. Schooling started out terrible but ended ok. Show was ok she was just really worried the ring. Talked to my friend, told him how she was and we still had work to do.

Then last couple weeks she’s a spooky A hole again. Looking at jumps that have been in my ring forever, spooking at nothing. She was just riding her last week and I have a 2’ roll top the horse has jumped. Stopped at it like it was going to eat her. She isn’t stopping like she doesn’t like to jump. She stops like she is terrified. Same thing happened over a little white gate. Looked at it hard but did go over it.

I go back to my friend and I’m told him what is going on and we are frustrated and want him to work on more things with her. Now i want to preface this guy is not mean whatsoever he is not like some of the people that claim to be a horse whisperer and beat them into submission. He’s so calm and chill I enjoy watching his process and I’ve learned a lot from that. And I make my daughter work with him and her mare directly.

So now this week I’m just stressed I had chiro out last week ( a new person bc my other took a sabbatical). And she agreed she’s tense not comfortable in her own skin seems scared. However nothing sore or out of place. I told her about her heats etc. she recommended I do a lymes and epm test so guess what I’m getting done next week.

I called my vet today and we talked for about 45 minutes just of other possibilities besides hormones. But we still circled back to hormones or some issue with her repro organs.
Looking back she started ancting more spooky in when April rolled around. I guess the dead are walking around again it coincides with her cycle.

Last week she wasn’t really paying attention neighing back to the barn spooking at nothing. So we are gonna ultrasound her next week and see what’s going on in there again and give her another overall evaluation.

I can never get a video of her acting a fool in the stall but last night one of my employees did. They stayed in bc supposed to storm and she was going buck wild in her stall squeeling, kicking and no one was around. We can only hear it. Which makes me think her cycle maybe painful.

Sorry this post is so long I just want anyone who reads it to see everything I’ve done so far. But I’ll take advice any and all. Oh and she is on positude calmakazi and ulcer erasure. Not sure it’s doing anything. It does work on another mare I have. I would post a video but since I’m new it won’t let me

#2

It won’t let me upload a video because I’m a new user

#3

Did you ever scope for ulcers or just treated with GG for a month?

#4

I did a power pack of ulcer guard and then sucralfate and she’s on ulcer erasure as well now

#5

I am not going to lie, your post is very hard to follow. You need character breaks/returns. One giant paragraph isn’t going to help you or your horse.

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#6
  1. this giant block of history makes me want to shut down. I don’t actually understand what happened.
  2. this needs to be distilled to a smaller story.
  3. can you please cut your story into smaller pieces?
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#7

Maybe take a deep breath and repost your concerns with paragraph breaks?

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#8

Honestly that would be where I’d start. I’ve known several horses with diffuse issues including spooking where scoping identified the type of ulcers and resulted in a multi month treatment plan. A month of GG or UG followed by sucralfate wouldn’t have done diddly for my horse. We did 4 months of UG, sucralfate, and misoprostol with a diet overhaul and monitored tapered program to get back to baseline.

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#10

Hi thanks for the advice. First time on here and first time really writing down what has happened, probably have run on sentences, for sure lacks proper punctuation. Trying to think of as much detail as I am writing. Felt emotional writing about it. Plus my fat thumbs typing probably created some typos. I tend to write as I’m speaking as well. Guess it’s a character flaw of mine. I did also apologize for the length in my original, my story is 3 years long and a lot has happened. I did however go back in and break out the paragraphs and clean up some sentences so maybe you will be able to read and comprehend it better. Thanks for making me feel so welcome on here!:pray:

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#11

Thanks did u also test for hind gut ulcers or just scope for gastric ulcers? Also for the 4 months did u do a daily dose GG combined with the sucralfate? I have had positive results with doing a power pack of UG and then sucralfate with other horses so that why I did that with her. But we may need to add a scope to the list at some point. Thanks!

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#12

I can follow your story without any re-writes.

  1. This isn’t going to be a horse ready to do the 3’6 juniors anytime soon. Can you get your kid a new horse or lease one?
  2. It really sounds hormonal, have you considered spaying???
  3. If not hormonal, maybe it’s kissing spines, or ECVM, but sounds hormonal from your story.
  4. Regumate doesn’t always work. Worked for mine for a year, then not so much.
  5. Sorry, this may not be the right horse for the job.
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#13

Do I have this part right? You have had this horse for three years, she has had the same problem since day one, you are a good trainer, your vets are good vets.

As best I can tell, you last resort is spaying. But, even if this is the answer, which it may not be, it will not get this horse to junior hunter land for your daughter. You need to separate these two issues.

1.You are trying to find an answer for this horse’s issues.
2. You need a junior hunter

Two distinct problems. You might find more answers for either problem if you try to separate the two.

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#14

FWIW, I have a very sensitive warmblood mare who has been a challenge. Spooking/seeing dead people is the first sign something is making her ever so slightly uncomfortable. Not lame, not painful, nothing obviously detectable… just uncomfortable. It took me forever to figure out what she was trying to communicate, because she wasn’t doing it how horses usually do it. It starts with little spooks and will eventually escalate to full blown crazy.

I spent a good 10+ years thinking I owned a spooky horse. Now I know if she starts getting looky, she is (badly) trying to communicate something to me. When it starts it’s part mental gymnastics, part dance number as I try to find the balance between honoring her complaint (if I can) and kicking on, because you can’t just spook and get out of work.

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#15

I ve been researching having her spayed. I’m hoping that some others on this forum have stories of spaying. I know what I’ve read the mares strike rear try to kick people “stallion like behavior”. She is not like that at all just spooky then does this wierd thing in the stall.( I wish I could upload the video) I’ve read about success stories and stories where it made no difference or made things worse. I wish I just had a definitive super clear answer that it was hormones or whatever it maybe. I agree hormones are the path we are still pursuing.
As far as the Jr hunter part I’m not worried about that at this point. It really was just for context and how it’s frustrating when you and your daughter have goals and intentions but they don’t always pan out the way you see them.
My goal now is to figure out what is wrong with her. I would never sell her in good consciousness knowing she is like this and wouldn’t want her to get into the wrong hands.
She is a really really nice mare and talented. We have schooled higher jumps at home and she does have scope for the bigger jumps if she would ever get her head straight.

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#16

Yes we have had her going on 3 years in December spookiness comes in waves. Some days are better than others. But I’m a problem solver and don’t like being defeated so I really want to get to the root of her problem and help make her a happier horse.
Yes you are correct but I’m not worried about the junior hunter part at this point it was mainly written in there for context. But she is very talented when she has her head on right and has scope

I want to figure out what is wrong with her. Yes I believe I have good vets. My one vet is consulting with a repro vet this week.

I don’t like tooting my horn but I’m an accomplished trainer. She just has me a stumped. So seeking for advice or support

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#17

I’d probably also consider a muscular myopathy (pssm or rer). My mare has really turned a corner with a diet change (no soy, no alfalfa, increased whey protein). Not perfect but I am now able to build her confidence because her body is much happier.

I do also keep my mare on about 16ml regumate. Her heats never really impacted her spookiness but she just drives the geldings crazy. Any less than 16ml does not work. You could consider short cycling and then fishing the regumate at a higher level than before if not already maxed out.

Good luck!

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#18

GG a hour later sucralfate syringed and then a hour later miso with food. Sucralfate mid day and then again a hour before dinner and miso in dinner. We also did outlast with meals and free choice hay.

No signs of hind gut but another horse started having some off manure and gas so we did the 90 or 120 (my memory is failing) succeed daily paste, which resolved both concerns.

#19

Thank you for adding paragraph breaks!

If you haven’t scoped and tested for ulcers, that is where I would start. Our vet is currently running a deal that comes with free gastrogard if you have your horse scoped, so four of my barnmates with spooky [edit: and/or tense/anxious] horses had them scoped and all four had ulcers. My mare also sees ghosts, so I am going to try and have her scoped as well before the deal expires.

Also, it sounds like your mare is worse while cycling, and she blew through Regumate so you took her off? That also happened with my mare. She was great while on the injectable compounded Regumate, but when I went back to oral, she broke through it several times, so I took her off. If I could afford it, I would put her back on the injectable. Is that an option for you?

Finally, my mare also sees ghosts, spooks at fences she has jumped while flatting - especially if they have moved (though doesn’t stop at them o/f), and is generally insecure. She really needs her rider (me) to be calm and in charge and - most importantly - committed to getting her past her meltdowns when she has them.

Meltdowns are pretty rare, it’s usually just being looky or a scoot or a tiny shy, which I don’t mind. (And thankfully, she doesn’t have a stop.) But if she has a meltdown, if I show any inkling of fear or hesitation, she will try and “save” us. I have had to learn how to work through that, and am finding that the more we work on it the less it’s a problem. For us, it’s while hacking out, so I do a lot of grazing and ground work in the scary areas, work with my trainer on how I should react, and hack out with buddies, not alone. Probably not something you would want in a junior hunter, though.

And, sorry, I didn’t intend to make you feel unwelcome, but I tried three times to read that block of text and could not get through.

Good luck!

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#20

It’s really hard to diagnosis on the internet without knowing a bunch of details, so feel free to ignore. When you are dealing with a multi faceted issue, you have to peel back the layers.

What is she eating?
Have you xray’d her feet and or back.
Magnesium or vitamin e supplements
Turnout?

In my limited experience seeing dead people is usually related to pain. Not wanting to jump is usually foot pain, hock pain, back pain. Notice I said usually not always. Totally could be hormones but usually it’s not just hormones.

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#21

I’m just an amateur nobody - definitely not a trainer nor do I pretend to be, but wanted to share my story of my mare. Not sport horse bred, backyard QH type.

Bought her as a nearly 3 year old. Had a cowgirl back her. During her three year old year she was quiet enough a young beginner child could w/t her with zero problems. She was on almost 24hr turnout in a herd.

Moved her to a barn with a true program as a not-quite 5 year old. A++ barn. She went feral within 60 days. Like I wouldn’t go into her stall without already having her halter on her incase she tried to send heels my way. Assumed she was sore. Spent sooo much money on vet work. Ended up hauling her to our university vet clinic to spend 7 hours… and long story short, not really find anything. She was on daily turnout, solo, but in a large field with lots of horse neighbours.

After a year of pulling my hair out, moved her again to a farm with 24hr turnout in a herd. Within a month she had gained a bunch of weight and was actually back to being pleasant around. She gets stalled occasionally, and is happy in the stall, as long as it isn’t every single night.

In hindsight, I wish I had listened to what she was trying to tell me sooner. I did all my due diligence chasing down a mystery soreness but ultimately she was telling me she wasn’t happy with her living situation. For the record, my other horse absolutely thrived on this change and looked the best he ever had, so I don’t believe it was a barn issue rather than a “lifestyle” issue.

Just wanted to share my story that ended up a happy ending, and ask if you’ve had any luck switching turnout/living arrangements with any improvement?

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