I’m ok with using a racing stallion, as long as he ticks all of my boxes. And height isn’t a done deal, I would prefer a stallion on the taller side, but being a good horse is more important than a stallions height :winkgrin: some of the best horses I’ve ridden have been the little guys!
Ok folks, I’ve gotten some great feedback and some potential candidates for what I’m looking for. Now, for curiosity’s sake, if one was to use mares off the track for breeding, how would choosing an ott mare potentially differ from other sporthorse mares (i.e. Warmbloods, Arabians etc)? Would you be looking for the same things in an ott mare as you would a Warmblood broodmare or non racing mare? And how much would bloodlines come into play if none of the sires or dams were used in sport? I’m inclined to think that the sporting potential of a mare herself is most important, but some would argue that bloodlines are more important than the actual mare herself. Thoughts?
If I was going to play the breeding game again, (note: I don’t plan to; breeding my mare was the biggest, stupidest, most expensive horse related mistake I’ve ever made and I got a horse that Buck D. described as “Fancy”.) I would do a custom foal/breeding with an experienced breeder from a very high quality mare whose previous foals I could see in person. If you decide to pursue breeding horses, I hope you have loads of fun and an awesome experience!
I don’t think I would look for different things necessarily. For both you want a similar type, movement, sport performance record, etc. The only difference would be expectations of that type - obviously I would not expect a WB mare to be as fast as a TB nor would I expect a TB to be as good a mover as a WB (though some are).
In WB land, you “breed the best and ride the rest”. The best broodmares see only 30-90 days under saddle before starting their broodmare careers. So with that in mind, there’s not a whole lot of culling when it comes to sport longevity in the WB mare population. Most of those mares don’t have much of a sport career so we never really see how well they hold up under-saddle beyond what is required for their registries prospective performance/approval testings. Instead, that comes from the sire side, as stallions are often both ridden, shown and bred. Knowing the damline (distaff) is possibly one of the most important things about breeding for WBs, as powerful mare families can make very incredible athletes.
In TB land, these mares are known as “blue hen” mares and are almost never available for prices that the Sporthorse world can pay. Not every black type mare raced, but most do, and even if they know a mare might be a powerful producer, they usually still race her.
If I were looking for a TB mare I would look for two things: sport capability (or if you don’t have that, consistent race record that shows the horse can handle a strenuous job) and conformational capability. Certain families and/or sires have distinct conformation. For instance, AP Indy is very prepotent in the type of neck and shoulder he passes on. That is all Weekend Surprise in my opinion. Giant’s Causeway seems to have lots of Mariah’s Storm/Rahy/Roberto come out of his offspring, despite phenotypically being almost identical to his sire. Knowing the pedigree is only a piece of the puzzle, but it’s not a guarantee. Giant’s Causeway is a great example of that because his offspring seem to consistently be uphill despite he himself being as downhill as a seesaw.
I’d also be looking for a mare that is a good mover. Stallions can improve movement but it is not always the most heritable thing. I’d want to start with a mare that has an uphill, open shoulder, a good neck connection, and clean, lofty movement.
My unscientific opinion: now that so many good moving sires have saturated the TB gene pool, I think TBs are much better movers today than they used to be.
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I believe the term you are describing here is “blue hen”. Blacktype refers to horses that have won or placed in stakes company. 
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I bought a racing TB broodmare in January and bred her to my TB sporthorse stallion, intending to achieve an athletic foal for eventing. Shezagreatgal is an 11 yo mare with no history in sport; she earned $100k on the track and had four foals (one died). I had seen her, and her weanling filly previously at the 2015 fall sales. I was attracted to her physical type, pedigree, and saw a good bit of her in her very nice filly. I saw her again at a sale in January, as well as her 2016 colt. The colt was also a good type (though crooked, I felt due to improper trimming, not from mare). Selling as open, unbred due to mid-June 2016 foaling date, no TB buyers bid on her in the sale ring. I made a deal with the owner, took her home, and watched her trot around the paddock like a warmblood. She has a lovely neck and shoulder, typical of her sireline. I trusted my eye for conformation and my knowledge of pedigree, so far I’m thrilled with her. She is uphill, elastic, and popped through a little jump chute like a hunter. Cannot wait for her 2018 foal!
http://www.pedigreequery.com/shezagreatgal
I always keep my eye out for low end TB broodmares with appealing sport pedigrees-- pedigrees I feel give good consistency in physical type, and would cross well with my stallion. I felt quite comfortable gambling on Shezagreatgal because I’d already seen two of her offspring, and they were similar to her despite different sires.
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Thank you very much, southcoastqueens. His death has been a crushing personal loss to me, but I am grateful for having him in my life for 25 years, from his first breath to his last.
In answer to your second question about TB mares: I bred A Fine Romance for the track, both his sire (Brave Shot (GB) and his dam Two Bitter were race horses. I bought his dam at the Woodbine breeding stock sale, and that started me down the path of breeding race horses. I had seen her at the farm when I went to pick up a three year old colt - her son, coming off the track. She was the epitome of beautiful to me. So of course I looked up her pedigree, and when I saw her in the sale the next year, I bought her. She had raced 61 times, from 2 to 5, and came from a family of hard knocking racehorses.
Then since I had one mare, of course I needed another… .
While pedigree was important to me, and I pored over The Bloodhorse Stallion book memorizing pedigrees, I was always looking for a certain type. I went to all the sales and looked at every single mare, as other people were watching them I stood and watched too… watched them walk. Then, when I had a couple of horses at the track, I would go and watch the horses there too. Watch them work in the morning, watch them race, watch them walk.
I gradually switched from breeding race horses to breeding sport horses, but the principle to me was the same, and I was using the same horses. I wasn’t looking for ‘sport horse pedigrees’ at the time - but there was a consistent type, produced by certain lines, specifically Nasrullah, Double Jay, Royal Charger, Bold Bidder, Gay Missile (the family of Weekend Surprise) that appealed to me. It was only after that I started studying TBs in sport that I found out how influential those individuals were.
I remember when I first saw the conformation photo of Brave Shot (GB) my first thought was "that horse can jump!’. Of course I wasn’t supposed to be breeding jumpers…
I was looking for horses who were well put together, athletic, with a great hip and shoulder, and a big free walk. I believe if you want to produce athletes, you need to breed athletes.
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Ha! When I go to the track, I don’t look so much for a racehorse, but for a future sport horse with the look and qualities that appeal to me. Can’t help myself as I, too, have a look I like. A bit of jingle in the pocket at the end of the day, with lunch paid for, is a pretty good day for me.
Theresa Washtock did spot her future Olympic horse “Aristotle” at the track and thought to herself, “That’s the horse for me” and it was!
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This is the look I like but the coming years he is not available for breeding: https://myalbum.com/album/aaPzMuUZ4PkN
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FWIW, she’s the same female family as Bonne Cause. They both descend from Bonfire. So you have at the very least the same MtDNA to pass on to her foals.
??? Shezagreatgal is mare family 3, Bonne Cause is mare family 5e…
Jennifer
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My error. I was looking at a bunch of pedigrees at the same time and got her mixed up with someone else.
He’s lovely - thanks for sharing the album. Would love to hear an update on how training and competition goes. Ahonoora in the direct sire line, and linebred … likely to be prepotent? Tourbillon further back… That’s nice.
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Oh, he has grown into such a handsome boy! You must be rightfully proud.
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He is doing well. He has been given a rest from competition and will compete again in the spring. He is being given some time to get stronger by giving him some good classical dressage training.
I am very proud of him :yes::yes:.
He will only breed again after his sport career. Too much hassle to combine sport with breeding. This year two foals were born because he only bred two mares but these foals are very nice.
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Elles, he’s beautiful! He’s really matured quite nicely. You have every reason to be proud. Best of luck with him!
Thank you Zipperfoot.
Not full TB but thought I’d share if you really like AFR. Iron horse equine stands a young stud by AFR and out of a Emilion mare, just getting out there but hes a big handsome guy with a huge jump.
http://ironhorseequine.com/index.php/darwin-ihe/
I know IHE’s facebook has more up to date photos and he’ll be at the stallion showcase this weekend at thd royal
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Wow, thanks so much for all the info!! I’m also attempting to look at as many mares (both racing and sport) as I can and I think I’ve narrowed down my “type”, and I’ll take a look at the Stallion book, thx!
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Wow wow wow!!! Will he ever be available for breeding?
