Sporthorse TB breeding

[Dressagelvr]

@Elles

But why do people often pay more for an unproven warmblood than they pay for an unproven Thoroughbred? Because they know what their parents did and their grandparents did in sport?

Seriously?

Some WB books go back to the mid 1700s, having separate lines for riding almost all the way back. Educate yourself on WB breeding. I recommend this book:
https://horsesdaily.com/article/maki…ttard-gribaldi

WBs aren’t just “sport horses”. There are separate lines for dressage and show jumping. Have been for generations. You simply cannot discard this history. All the years TB breeders have been building towards great racers, WB breeders have been building towards great sport horses.

Even a sport horse TB was born of centuries of RACING lines. It just happens to be good at a secondary career. Can it reliably pass along “secondary career” genetics?

There’s probably a Hanoverian out there who could win a race or two. Let’s throw out the breed rules and say he does. Is there a TB breeder out there who will have even a passing interest in him as a race stallion? Nope.

Yes, the WBs have some TB in them, but these were almost all English TBs which are generally larger with heavier bone than American TBs.

There have been some excellent American TB sport horse stallions in the past 20 years for eventing or the occasional show jumper, but most are retired or sadly gone (Fred, Coconut Grove, etc).

And the sports have changed. The winning TB hunter from 1985 wouldn’t even be in the running in Wellington these days.

Breeding any horse is a crapshoot. Even the best to the best makes duds. But, the history helps stack the odds in your favor. Fewer duds. Better quality duds.

Will I pay extra to stack the odds in my favor? Yes. Yes I will. And so will anyone serious about being competitive today in sport, especially dressage, hunters, or show jumping.

[Elles]

@beowulf

Well, what about the TBs bred for turf and steeplechase? I would say they are pretty expensive, and pretty well proven to jump… Their stud fees cost more than most WB foals alive, let alone WB stud fees.

Not really interested in making this another TB vs WB debate, but I did laugh at the “It Came On A Plane” comment… oh, it is very true and not just with WBs… I had a really nice TB years ago, that was born in the US, but part of his pedigree had names born in IRE or GB. He was actually USA-bred through and through (DLB on top, Mr P on bottom once you looked further back). It just so happened that his recent ancestors were born across pond during shuttling to meet other stallions. It always cracked me up when he was introduced as an Irish or British Thoroughbred, as if that was some fantastical thing that cut him above the rest. I mean, Dixieland Band was his grandfather so he was as American as you could get… Really nice horse, though, but not at all rare: tons of horses like him, people just don’t realize that TBs can be nice movers and freaky jumpers, too. He wasn’t raced, which definitely helped him in the long run, I think - since he came to me with almost zero physical baggage.

I agree but I know most people say that steeplechasing has nothing to do with showjumping.

[beowulf]

@Dressagelvr

Seriously?

Some WB books go back to the mid 1700s, having separate lines for riding almost all the way back. Educate yourself on WB breeding. I recommend this book:
https://horsesdaily.com/article/maki…ttard-gribaldi

WBs aren’t just “sport horses”. There are separate lines for dressage and show jumping. Have been for generations.

Even a sport horse TB was born of centuries of RACING lines. It just happens to be good at a secondary career and may, or may not be able to pass good genetics for that secondary career along.

Yes, the WBs have some TB in them, but these were almost all English TBs which are generally larger with heavier bone than American TBs.

There have been some excellent American TB sport horse stallions in the past 20 years for eventing or the occasional show jumper, but most are retired or sadly gone (Fred, Coconut Grove, etc).

Breeding any horse is a crapshoot. Even the best to the best makes duds. But, the history helps stack the odds in your favor. Fewer duds. Better quality duds.

Will I pay extra to stack the odds in my favor? Yes. Yes I will. And so will anyone serious about being competitive today in sport, especially dressage or show jumping.

Reread the conversation. You and Elles are both saying the same point. Elles asked a rhetorical question, may have been hard to tell from their text alone, but context might help more. :yes:

Re: the bold…

English TBs are not generally larger or with heavier bone. That is a myth I’d love to see put to rest. Certain TB lines are heavier or with more bone (example: Giant’s Causeway, Danehill, etc) but the breed as a whole is drawing from the same genetic pool…

There is a difference in type based on the type of surface raced upon (dirt vs turf, steeplechase, etc), and USA does have primarily dirt tracks, but phenotypically, there is not a discernible difference between English and USA TBs – especially with all the shuttling of stallions thrown in.

Many of England’s best TBs are from USA/CAN lines… Look at Sadler’s Wells… Same goes for AUS … they have Danehill… who was USA.

I will concede, the UK & GER has one line I am very envious of that is not very prominent in the US, and that is Ahonoora… his get are simply not competitive or thriving here - but obviously, made huge names for themselves in eventing and turf/steeple chasing across the pond.

If we are talking about the TBs responsible for developing the WB, they are in USA TBs too, just very far back. They both drew from practically the same stock (Bay Ronald, for instance). Not heavy or thick-boned stock by any means.

[Elles]

The Grand National might not carry black type, but is a notable race Hogan is keen to add to the stud’s list of achievements for the season in the hope that it will help him over the line.

He might not aim to breed jumping horses but it comes as something of a surprise that Hogan has not bred a Grand National steeple winner, as many of Sir Tristram’s and Zabeel’s offspring have proven highly proficient jumpers.

Last year’s steeple winner Mookta Heights was out of a Sir Tristram mare and the 2003 winner, Lance Corporal, was by Sir Tristram sire Military Plume.

Sir Tristram’s son Hip Flask won the 1992 Grand National Hurdle, while Zabeel’s sons Marlborough and Zabenz have also taken out the event. But Hogan says it’s not just for racing that they are sought.

“We had a steady stream of inquiries about sons of Sir Tristram and now Zabeel from the showjumping and eventing world, both here and in the northern hemisphere. They make very good jumpers,” he said.

[Elles]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/racing/merlos-pursues-a-grand-first-20050708-ge0h7h.html

[Elles]

https://m.facebook.com/LoveRacingNZ/posts/1307763605958897

[EventerAJ]

Amen, Beowulf. I, too, roll my eyes at the perceived “superiority” of the non-American TB. Riders here will complain that we have too much Northern Dancer (a CANADIAN born, btw), yet point to a “…(GBR)” or “…(IRE)” as a much better example of a sport horse, and I just sigh at the ignorance. The British & Irish, and most of Australian TB gene pool has way, WAY more Northern Dancer influence than the US. Sadlers Wells was as, or more prolific than Storm Cat, and Galileo is continuing on. Add in a heavy dose of Danzig (Danehill & on), and you really won’t find a successful British or Irish horse that isn’t related to common US dirt horses.

ND did make some fine jumpers (I have a ND granddaughter who went Advanced and jumped the moon), and he’s in a ton of chasers, but he was definitely NOT a “big boned, rangy type,” and neither are most of his best descendants. Don’t get me wrong, Frankel (IRE) is beautifully balanced and athletic, but physically, he would fit right in at any Kentucky stud farm…as his full brother Noble Mission (IRE) has at Lane’s End.

[beowulf]

@EventerAJ

Amen, Beowulf. I, too, roll my eyes at the perceived “superiority” of the non-American TB. Riders here will complain that we have too much Northern Dancer (a CANADIAN born, btw), yet point to a “…(GBR)” or “…(IRE)” as a much better example of a sport horse, and I just sigh at the ignorance. The British & Irish, and most of Australian TB gene pool has way, WAY more Northern Dancer influence than the US. Sadlers Wells was as, or more prolific than Storm Cat, and Galileo is continuing on. Add in a heavy dose of Danzig (Danehill & on), and you really won’t find a successful British or Irish horse that isn’t related to common US dirt horses.

ND did make some fine jumpers (I have a ND granddaughter who went Advanced and jumped the moon), and he’s in a ton of chasers, but he was definitely NOT a “big boned, rangy type,” and neither are most of his best descendants. Don’t get me wrong, Frankel (IRE) is beautifully balanced and athletic, but physically, he would fit right in at any Kentucky stud farm…as his full brother Noble Mission (IRE) has at Lane’s End.

Or worse yet, is when they gripe about Mr Prospector and how he “stamps” … :lol:

One of my favorites to see is when people are “ISO TB! Must not have any Mr P!!” That’s when you know those people probably are only familiar with the kind of Thoroughbred horse that fits in a Breyer Barn.

[Elles]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=963412167151703&id=491970704295854&_rdr

[EventerAJ]

@beowulf

Or worse yet, is when they gripe about Mr Prospector and how he “stamps” … :lol:

One of my favorites to see is when people are “ISO TB! Must not have any Mr P!!” That’s when you know those people probably are only familiar with the kind of Thoroughbred horse that fits in a Breyer Barn.

This is often the same person, or relative of the ottb owner who is incredibly smug about having a descendant of Secretariat or Bold Ruler. They don’t realize the MANY thousands of foals descending from AP Indy, Storm Cat, and Gone West will have Secretariat (and will show specific phenotype from those stallions, not Big Red himself).

[GoneAway]

So here’s a question for you knowledgeable folks because I have no clue…

I have a 5 yr old full TB gelding by Northern Afleet out of Godiva (CHI) by Gold Tribute. He was bred by Mt Brilliant here in KY for their elite polo program, but was too tall for polo and is now my baby jumper.

He was bred via AI. Aside from his USEF registration which he already has, do I have any options for registration? Sounds like the WB registries with open books still require both parents to be approved, and I know JC is out of the question. I am about to email the TIP folks to see if some kind of DNA testing would be acceptable in lieu of JC papers for participation in the TIP program, but I’m not holding my breath.

If he’s just a cool, unregistered TB with only a USEF number that’s fine, but I would like to see if there are any other options available. Thank you!

@Virginia Horse Mom @Texarkana @beowulf @EventerAJ

[Elles]

On my Instagram page I have collected a lot of pedigree information of past and present horses and the Thoroughbred in their pedigrees. Please look here:
www.instagram.com/spiritlakexx

[Elles]

Someone who knows a lot about breeding sport horses with the use of Thoroughbred blood is Michael Beining. He is a dressage trainer who used to have racehorses and who bred sport horses, race horses and used race horses to breed sport horses. He even bred a Thoroughbred stallion (Ridgmont) that was approved for breeding in Germany. He is German but has been living in America for quite a while. https://twitter.com/Ridgmont1

[Texarkana]

@GoneAway

I don’t think you have any registry options. I could be wrong. Maybe someone else has ideas.

[EventerAJ]

@Texarkana

@GoneAway

I don’t think you have any registry options. I could be wrong. Maybe someone else has ideas.

Agreed, I don’t think there’s much you can do. Say “AI” to the jockey club and they will (metaphorically) hang up on you. You might try to talk to TIP about a DNA proof of parentage, but being a Jockey Club related entity I wouldn’t have much hope.

Mt Brilliant breeds some very nice polo horses, though.

[Texarkana]

I’m surprised Taylor Made (I’m assuming) did AI for polo. How many other farms are doing this? Most I have worked with would rather not deal with it… but Mt. Brilliant has foals by Medaglia D’oro , Redoute’s Choice, Into Mischief…

[EventerAJ]

The untold truth of the big stud farms is that they may use “reinforcement breeding” and stick a straw in the mare after she is covered. Not with every stallion, not with every mare, but it happens occasionally if vets request it. (For those unfamiliar with big TB stud farms, there are usually vets working the shed who inspect a dismount sample from every cover; if semen quality is suspect, they may use a straw to “reinforce”.) Not all stallions are collected, but some are, probably older stallions. It’s not widely known, because for JC purposes, the studs can’t sell it, but it doesn’t surprise me Mt Brilliant worked a deal with TM to get some straws. They breed plenty of race horse mares, too, at the going rate.

[GoneAway]

Thank you both. TIP said no, which I expected. Disappointing because I think he’d do great in those classes, but it is what it is. He has the KY Polo brand on his left flank and we’ve been jokingly calling him our “Kentucky Warmblood.” Maybe I’ll say that out loud and make it official. :lol:

EventerAJ, they sure do! Sig has a great brain which I appreciate the most. Article on their program for anyone interested: [h=1]From Racing to Polo: Mt. Brilliant Farm Takes Thoroughbreds to the Top[/h]

[LaurieB]

Thanks for the article on Mt. Brilliant, @GoneAway ! That was great.

[flofleming]

If you’re looking for a TB stallion who will do AI, there’s a Miswaki grandson named Asagao who has done some eventing and has a great mind and fancy jump. They have just made his frozen available in the USA this year, and the quality is very good. SES doesn’t carry him but you can get it through Andrea Sieg (she’s on FB). I think you can register the foal as a Westphalian, but Andrea could tell you about that.