Sporthorse TB breeding

[maorkmark]

Original Q deleted because of account problems, this was a thread about thoroughbred sport horse breeding

[Simkie]

PHR tried to offer a registry for AI bred Thoroughbreds. They closed up…what? Five years ago, maybe? Researching that registry and the issues they had may be a good starting point for you.

[EventerAJ]

I have a really nice, extremely well-bred TB eventing stallion just starting his stud career. I have one full TB yearling by him, and 3 of my own TB mares in foal for next year. While the idea of a sport registry is nice, I don’t believe it will happen. The Jockey Club is only concerned with racing and doesn’t have interest/time/ resources for sport.

Sadly, I don’t believe there is enough buyer interest either to justify a huge effort breeding TBs for sport. I do it because I love the breed, and I fully believe the good ones are awesome eventers. There are others who feel the same way, but it is realistically not a large or profitable market. You’re absolutely right that it isn’t a deep pool of TB stallions standing for sport in the US; partly because the best ones are $$$ for racing, and because it costs a lot to stand a stallion, compete him, get foals on the ground, all needed to market him well. And then you still have many breeders who would rather use an average WB stallion instead.

Honestly there are lots of nice OTTBs out there, and (as my husband reminds me often!!) I can pick up a 3yo racehorse already broke and going cheaper than it costs to produce a weanling (including mare care for 11 months, vet bills, etc), and I still have to feed/care for that foal for 3 years. Breeding sport TBs is definitely a labor of love, not for profit!

[maorkmark]

@EventerAJ

I have a really nice, extremely well-bred TB eventing stallion just starting his stud career. I have one full TB yearling by him, and 3 of my own TB mares in foal for next year. While the idea of a sport registry is nice, I don’t believe it will happen. The Jockey Club is only concerned with racing and doesn’t have interest/time/ resources for sport.

Sadly, I don’t believe there is enough buyer interest either to justify a huge effort breeding TBs for sport. I do it because I love the breed, and I fully believe the good ones are awesome eventers. There are others who feel the same way, but it is realistically not a large or profitable market. You’re absolutely right that it isn’t a deep pool of TB stallions standing for sport in the US; partly because the best ones are $$$ for racing, and because it costs a lot to stand a stallion, compete him, get foals on the ground, all needed to market him well. And then you still have many breeders who would rather use an average WB stallion instead.

Honestly there are lots of nice OTTBs out there, and (as my husband reminds me often!!) I can pick up a 3yo racehorse already broke and going cheaper than it costs to produce a weanling (including mare care for 11 months, vet bills, etc), and I still have to feed/care for that foal for 3 years. Breeding sport TBs is definitely a labor of love, not for profit!

About the buyer interest, I’ve talked to OTTB owners and those who own non racing thoroughbreds who would like to show, compete and breed Thoroughbreds but don’t have the framework one would have if they were getting into, say Trakehners or even Canadian warmbloods, the backing, the necessary information and diversity in choice of who to breed too/lines etc… it seems around here everyone and their mother wants to breed their TB but just doesn’t have the same options. And although there are breed shows for TBs the ones around here don’t seem rival those of AQHA or even Morgan breed shows. TBs in NZ and UK also seem to be taking off in the show circuit.

However I may be thinking too globally :lol: The Georgian Grande registry is a framework that I think might work for sport TB’s, a small and tight knit group of breeders with a diverse range of stallions etc. available. But on the other hand TB’s typically don’t come in as many flashy colours LOL.

And you’re correct! A labour of love indeed!

** Edit to take out “enormous” as that’s probably an exaggeration

[Texarkana]

@southcoastqueens

The amount of TBs in the UK and NZ on the show circuit and competing in TB shows and hack classes is enormous, and I think that given the proper framework that could take off in NA too!

Do you have evidence of this?

Because I’ve not understood that to be true. My understanding is both countries have recently also tried to push the idea of “OTTBs” and created a lot of TIP-like classes because the breed has similar stigmas. I don’t have a lot of (or any) experience showing in the UK or NZ, so my information is all secondhand.

[maorkmark]

@Texarkana

Do you have evidence of this?

Because I’ve not understood that to be true. My understanding is both countries have recently also tried to push the idea of “OTTBs” and created a lot of TIP-like classes because the breed has similar stigmas. I don’t have a lot of (or any) experience showing in the UK or NZ, so my information is all secondhand.

“Enormous” might not have been the best word, but there more of them competing there than here, this is from one of my close friends who is currently competing in NZ but has also competed in Canada! They don’t necessarily have"OTTB" classes but she said that shes been to a few shows that have TB classes.

I have also done research into the British HOTY show and some hack class winners (even small/pony hack) have TB blood in them & there are certainly more sport advertised TB stallions at stud over there.

[maorkmark]

@Texarkana

Do you have evidence of this?

Because I’ve not understood that to be true. My understanding is both countries have recently also tried to push the idea of “OTTBs” and created a lot of TIP-like classes because the breed has similar stigmas. I don’t have a lot of (or any) experience showing in the UK or NZ, so my information is all secondhand.

Here is an excerpt from an equestrian life article as well http://www.equestrianlife.com.au/art…Hack-or-Hunter

“One of the most commonly debated elements of the show hunter section is the most basic question – what exactly is a show hunter? It is widely accepted that a successful show hack must be a quality animal, probably of Thoroughbred heritage, with clean limbs, a beautiful overall outline and refined features, a flowing and soft way of moving over the ground…”

Edit* heres some more winning TBs!

Broadshard Simplicity who is half TB won back to back supreme horse titles at the HOTYs in 2014/2015 and is described as an ideal “riding horse”

[Texarkana]

Interesting @southcoastqueens . Thanks for sharing.

I truly have very little knowledge of New Zealand. Friends in Australia have told me OTTBs are perceived similarly; I don’t know if that is factual or not. From my experience with England, etc., they seem to hold TB blood in higher regard than us and are more likely to stand TB sires for sport crosses. But I had not ever heard they value straight TBs and OTTBs as show hunters.

I’m probably very wrong in this, but I don’t think our North American horses have less TB blood than places like England. We’re very likely to breed an OTTB mare to anything else and call the resulting offspring by another breed-- warmblood, appendix, anglo, welsh cross, connemara cross, draft cross… half the time, we practically apologize for the thoroughbred part. “He’s registered KWPN by X stallion… his dam was just a thoroughbred…”

[Laurierace]

It may be the TB breeder in me but no, I do not see any reason to breed TBs specifically for “sport” when we are breeding so many for the ultimate sport of horse racing. Nothing we could possibly do with a horse is more athletic than a horse race and although other breeds also race, it can be argued that none do it anywhere near as well.
If you are breeding for your own use there is nothing wrong with using AI to breed a non registered TB but I do not see how that could ever be cost effective to breed to sell. Your competition has already done that and done it well on a larger scale.

[Simkie]

I got curious about the PHR dating. According to this thread it shut down in 2016.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/sport-horse-breeding/336989-performance-horse-registry-closing

But this post explains the a bit about the genesis of it:

@vineyridge

We had such hopes for it when the JC created it for sport TBs who weren’t going to breed to race and their foals. It was going to be the American equivalent of Weatherbys Non-Thoroughbred Register. Then the JC lost interest and sold it to Ned Bonnie who gave it to AHSA, or maybe USEA was already in existence, but I’m not sure. When USEF was founded, IIRC, they inherited it, had no interest in promoting it, expanded it to register anything, and now have decided to let it die.

The PHR started in an era where more people valued the TB for sport and still couldn’t stick around.

That certainly doesn’t mean that something similar couldn’t work, but that’s one hell of an uphill battle.

[Willesdon]

Way back in the mists of time, the Hunter Improvement Society (HIS) in the UK selected and supported TB stallions, usually with good racing form, which stood in various regions around the country and were available for use on local mares, usually hunter type. In the 1970s the HIS was the leading stud book for eventers. Then the HIS evolved into SHB(GB) and WB stallions were introduced, the WB invasion had begun and the TB has since declined in influence… except every serious event rider wants a high percentage of ‘blood’: scratch the pedigree of an athletic WB and see the quantity of blood, just labled differently.

TBs in the UK have usually had second careers in hunting, polo, team chasing, showing, etc. Many people even learn to ride on TBs and don’t even know what they are sitting on. We don’t breed that many animals (about 7 K p.a.) Obviously some will be culled after racing and most mares go into the breeding paddocks so it is generally geldings that need a new job. Concern for animal welfare within the racing industry has lead to the active promotion of ‘retraining of racehorses’ (ROR) through promotional marketing and support for many showing classes so there is now a specific demand for such creatures (and eligability is put into ads as a selling point). However, racing used to be very inward-looking and dismissive of other equestrian activities (racing is an ‘industry’ and all other equestrianism is still percieved as a ‘lifestyle’, even by government and sporting bodies here) so one good thing to come out of the racing interest in retraining is a much closer relationship between racing and eventing.

And to return to the original point about TB stallions, there are some sport stallions around in the UK, not many, generally for eventing. Power Blade is one at Harthill Stud and Primitive Rising at Langellar Stud … sadly, I think there are very few on the SHB(GB) approved stallion list at present.

[PeteyPie]

@southcoastqueens

…Any research I’ve done has focused on steeplechase lines in the UK, and French TB breeding, which seems to have a bit more finesse than NA breeding has had (for sport horses at least). I’ve also looked into the creation of the Georgian Grande breed (Saddlebred x Drafts or Fresians) which aims to bring back a “type” of Saddlebred that has long since disappeared.

Disclaimer** I am in NO way bashing the Jockey Club or North American Thoroughbred breeders in any way! I love Thoroughbreds and would just like to know if there is any way to improve on the sport horse side of the coin.

So, any thoughts? Suggestions? Is this just the ramblings of a university student with too much time on her hands during summer break? Am I crazy?

If you are focusing on steeplechase lines in Europe, why no do the same here? Concern, a Broad Brush son, was the sire of the Eclipse Award winning gelding Good Night Shirt. There are other Broad Brush influences in steeplechasing, including the pedigrees of Eclipse Award Winning claimer, Eagle Beagle. The gelding Eagle Beagle is a son of Lemon Drop Kid but has Broad Brush on his damside.

Richard’s Kid. Eagle Beagle’s full brother, Richard’s Kid, is at stud in California, at Magali Farms.

Mr. Broad Blade – a gorgeous son of Broad Brush is also at Magali Farms and his fee is only $1000. He’s getting up there so I’m sure he is close to being pensioned.

Include – the Broad Brush son Include is at Airdry Stud in Kentucky.

COTH poster Fred owned A Fine Romance, and if you PM her, she might know of some of his sons who are standing, or she might have other Thoroughbred stallions she would recommend. I believe that Fred’s focus was primarily on breeding sport horses with that stallion and one of his daughters was a three-day eventer in the Olympics a few years ago.

Senor Swinger – the sire of 2017 Eclipse Award finalist (steeplechase) gelding named All the Way Jose. Senor Swinger is standing in Florida.

Tiznow – is the sire of another Eclipse Award finalist named Mr. Hot Stuff. Tiznow is standing in Kentucky at Winstar Farms.

[Standard_Bread]

@Willesdon

Way back in the mists of time, the Hunter Improvement Society (HIS) in the UK selected and supported TB stallions, usually with good racing form, which stood in various regions around the country and were available for use on local mares, usually hunter type. In the 1970s the HIS was the leading stud book for eventers.

Just wanted to chime in to say that there’s an entire book written on the history of the HIS (aptly titled The History of the H.I.S.) if people are interested in further information on the aims and successes of the HIS.

[maorkmark]

@PeteyPie

If you are focusing on steeplechase lines in Europe, why no do the same here? Concern, a Broad Brush son, was the sire of the Eclipse Award winning gelding Good Night Shirt. There are other Broad Brush influences in steeplechasing, including the pedigrees of Eclipse Award Winning claimer, Eagle Beagle. The gelding Eagle Beagle is a son of Lemon Drop Kid but has Broad Brush on his damside.

Richard’s Kid. Eagle Beagle’s full brother, Richard’s Kid, is at stud in California, at Magali Farms.

Mr. Broad Blade – a gorgeous son of Broad Brush is also at Magali Farms and his fee is only $1000. He’s getting up there so I’m sure he is close to being pensioned.

Include – the Broad Brush son Include is at Airdry Stud in Kentucky.

COTH poster Fred owned A Fine Romance, and if you PM her, she might know of some of his sons who are standing, or she might have other Thoroughbred stallions she would recommend. I believe that Fred’s focus was primarily on breeding sport horses with that stallion and one of his daughters was a three-day eventer in the Olympics a few years ago.

Senor Swinger – the sire of 2017 Eclipse Award finalist (steeplechase) gelding named All the Way Jose. Senor Swinger is standing in Florida.

Tiznow – is the sire of another Eclipse Award finalist named Mr. Hot Stuff. Tiznow is standing in Kentucky at Winstar Farms.

AFR swoon, and thanks for the recommendations!

[maorkmark]

@Texarkana

Interesting @southcoastqueens . Thanks for sharing.

I truly have very little knowledge of New Zealand. Friends in Australia have told me OTTBs are perceived similarly; I don’t know if that is factual or not. From my experience with England, etc., they seem to hold TB blood in higher regard than us and are more likely to stand TB sires for sport crosses. But I had not ever heard they value straight TBs and OTTBs as show hunters.

I’m probably very wrong in this, but I don’t think our North American horses have less TB blood than places like England. We’re very likely to breed an OTTB mare to anything else and call the resulting offspring by another breed-- warmblood, appendix, anglo, welsh cross, connemara cross, draft cross… half the time, we practically apologize for the thoroughbred part. “He’s registered KWPN by X stallion… his dam was just a thoroughbred…”

You’re right about the TB blood in NA horses, and I’ve definitely seen people apologize about their sport horse TB lineage percentage. That could be why I perceive there to be less TBs in sport in NA? Maybe our friends across the pond are just more vocal about percentage and heritage regarding TBs. Quite right!

[maorkmark]

@Willesdon

Way back in the mists of time, the Hunter Improvement Society (HIS) in the UK selected and supported TB stallions, usually with good racing form, which stood in various regions around the country and were available for use on local mares, usually hunter type. In the 1970s the HIS was the leading stud book for eventers. Then the HIS evolved into SHB(GB) and WB stallions were introduced, the WB invasion had begun and the TB has since declined in influence… except every serious event rider wants a high percentage of ‘blood’: scratch the pedigree of an athletic WB and see the quantity of blood, just labled differently.

TBs in the UK have usually had second careers in hunting, polo, team chasing, showing, etc. Many people even learn to ride on TBs and don’t even know what they are sitting on. We don’t breed that many animals (about 7 K p.a.) Obviously some will be culled after racing and most mares go into the breeding paddocks so it is generally geldings that need a new job. Concern for animal welfare within the racing industry has lead to the active promotion of ‘retraining of racehorses’ (ROR) through promotional marketing and support for many showing classes so there is now a specific demand for such creatures (and eligability is put into ads as a selling point). However, racing used to be very inward-looking and dismissive of other equestrian activities (racing is an ‘industry’ and all other equestrianism is still percieved as a ‘lifestyle’, even by government and sporting bodies here) so one good thing to come out of the racing interest in retraining is a much closer relationship between racing and eventing.

And to return to the original point about TB stallions, there are some sport stallions around in the UK, not many, generally for eventing. Power Blade is one at Harthill Stud and Primitive Rising at Langellar Stud … sadly, I think there are very few on the SHB(GB) approved stallion list at present.

Wow!! Thanks for all the info!!

[skydy]

@PeteyPie

If you are focusing on steeplechase lines in Europe, why no do the same here? Concern, a Broad Brush son, was the sire of the Eclipse Award winning gelding Good Night Shirt. There are other Broad Brush influences in steeplechasing, including the pedigrees of Eclipse Award Winning claimer, Eagle Beagle. The gelding Eagle Beagle is a son of Lemon Drop Kid but has Broad Brush on his damside.

Richard’s Kid. Eagle Beagle’s full brother, Richard’s Kid, is at stud in California, at Magali Farms.

Mr. Broad Blade – a gorgeous son of Broad Brush is also at Magali Farms and his fee is only $1000. He’s getting up there so I’m sure he is close to being pensioned.

Include – the Broad Brush son Include is at Airdry Stud in Kentucky.

COTH poster Fred owned A Fine Romance, and if you PM her, she might know of some of his sons who are standing, or she might have other Thoroughbred stallions she would recommend. I believe that Fred’s focus was primarily on breeding sport horses with that stallion and one of his daughters was a three-day eventer in the Olympics a few years ago.

Senor Swinger – the sire of 2017 Eclipse Award finalist (steeplechase) gelding named All the Way Jose. Senor Swinger is standing in Florida.

Tiznow – is the sire of another Eclipse Award finalist named Mr. Hot Stuff. Tiznow is standing in Kentucky at Winstar Farms.

Tiz Now stands for $50k. That is a problem. Sport horse breeders don’t go there. Include is $7,500. Most of the proven, athletic TB’s have fees above what non-racing people are willing to pay

Fred’s stallion, A Fine Romance ,was stunning, I agree. I would look to @Fred for advice in this area.:yes:

[Simkie]

Sigh. Good discussion, nothing contentious, and the OP/follow up posts get deleted??? Why, because you didn’t get the response you expected? :-/

[maorkmark]

@Simkie

Sigh. Good discussion, nothing contentious, and the OP/follow up posts get deleted??? Why, because you didn’t get the response you expected? :-/

Actually my email got hacked and I wanted to delete this account because it has personal information. I found no other way to do that other than deleting posts and going inactive, but thanks for the snark. Any responses I had gotten were very informational and well written.

[Laurierace]

How does posting deleting/not applicable tell us you felt the responses that people took the time to share were informational and well written? Not applicable is a relatively mild version of FU in my opinion.