Spring trees...thoughts?

[runNjump86]

A few weeks ago, I had a new chiropractor adjust my horse. She pointed out his usual areas of soreness, how his right hip wasn’t sitting where it should be, and how his left hock seemed a bit sore. All normal (except for the hock, but he had also just bashed it pretty hard on a jump standard about a week earlier).

However, he came up pretty sore in his withers and low back, so she asked to see my saddles. My dressage saddle is the traditional wooden tree with wool flocking. She thought it may need adjusted again since it has been several months and his back has changed slightly, but overall was happy with it. My jump saddle is brand new and has a spring tree, also with wool flocking. She was not impressed with the fit of the new saddle. To be fair I had only put about three rides on it at this point, but it still appeared to be perching quite high off his back. I explained to her it was a spring tree, and her response was a little shocking, honestly. She went off on a minor tangent about how they should fit their back before adding all the bells and whistles (pad, girth, rider).

I talk to the fitter and she asks me to keep riding in it to see how it breaks in and changes. Makes sense. So I put several more rides (conditioning, jumping, XC schooling, etc) on it, oil and roll the flaps religiously, etc. To be clear she is the one who adjusted the dressage saddle (which fits).

Last night I had my horse adjusted again, but by his normal chiropractor. Usual areas of soreness were not bad, but his left side was locked up, no soreness in either hock. Yet once again, sore on withers and low back. She checks my saddles and is happy with the dressage saddle, but not with the new jump saddle. It has broken in quite a bit since the other chiropractor checked it, but it still doesn’t fit his back without “bells and whistles”. She flipped it over and you can see a very small difference in sides of the saddle. She also flexed it and it flexes VERY differently on the left vs. the right. She also went off on a minor tangent about spring trees (not a nice one, but it was too long for me to remember). Overall she thought the jump saddle was a decent fit over his withers but believes the unequal flexing of the tree is causing the soreness in his back.

These are two different chiropractors who do not work with each other. My regular go-to vet was also there at the second adjustment and agreed about the fit but didn’t really have an opinion about spring trees. I’m frustrated. I do not in any way blame the fitter because it sounds and looks like the new jump saddle was made crooked, essentially. She has not seen it since I got it (only a few weeks ago) so we still need to do the follow up evaluation.

Has anyone else had issues with spring trees? Are there even saddles out there with traditional trees and wool flocking anymore? I’ve been browsing and spotted a nice County and Albion that I would love to try out, but now I’m worried about spring trees causing problems that can’t be fixed.

[Karosel]

As far as I know, spring trees have been used for decades without any ill-effects. I’ve never had any issues with my Albion with a spring-tree. Perhaps yours is defective?

[runNjump86]

[QUOTE=Karosel;7440756]
As far as I know, spring trees have been used for decades without any ill-effects. I’ve never had any issues with my Albion with a spring-tree. Perhaps yours is defective?[/QUOTE]

That’s what we decided as well. I just found it very interesting that two separate, highly esteemed chiropractors do not care for spring trees.

[alto]

[QUOTE=runNjump86;7440852]
I just found it very interesting that two separate, highly esteemed chiropractors do not care for spring trees.[/QUOTE]
What trees did they prefer & why?
Trees that flex are all the rage (think E-Carbon, 2G & it’s latest version, I believe Antares, Voltaire, Devoucoux have versions as well …)

She also flexed it and it flexes VERY differently on the left vs. the right.

This may be a warranty issue with Stubben - contact them, ask for a rep to come out (preferred as you want fit for the horse looked at as well) or ship saddle in for assessment.

However, he came up pretty sore in his withers and low back, so she asked to see my saddles.

Yet once again, sore on withers and low back.

This sounds like a saddle fit issue
BUT may also be a reflection of other body issues rather than the back being the primary, e.g., feet, hocks etc can “show” as back soreness ( a lameness vet at one of the GM clinics talked about this a bit, also noting that he sees very few performance horses that are not lame to some degree … it was an interesting discussion)

it still doesn’t fit his back without “bells and whistles”.

What are these “bells & whistles”

As horse has just been adjusted, why not discontinue using the jump saddle for several weeks & see how that affects his back soreness - if your chiro’s are correct, he should vastly improve.

(though here again, some would also suggest that horse should not be ridden for several weeks/months … it can be a long road to back recovery)

[runNjump86]

“Bells and whistles” were referred to as pads, girth, and the rider.

He didn’t react to his stifles or hocks being manipulated, but we also didn’t do a full on flexion test, either.

I have finally got this horse going in a regular program…not riding him for several days, let alone weeks/months makes me want to throw up. Our first event is coming up in March (entries already sent in), so I feel like I’m stuck.

I know horses can be uneven as far as muscle development, much like humans. I’ve heard that Stubbens are supposed to bridge because of the flex tree, yet I find it hard to believe it would bridge so differently on one side. And both chiros prefer traditional non-flex trees.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=runNjump86;7441611]

I know horses can be uneven as far as muscle development, much like humans. I’ve heard that Stubbens are supposed to bridge because of the flex tree, yet I find it hard to believe it would bridge so differently on one side. And both chiros prefer traditional non-flex trees.[/QUOTE]

I’m wondering if there’s a terminology issue going on here. Basically any saddle coming out of England is a spring tree…Countys, Black Countrys, Smith Worthingtons, Crosbys, etc. There are non-English brands that have them too, Passiers, Stubbens, Pessoas (Argentinian, although they are modeled off English saddles), etc. And obviously there are many, many horses going comfortably in these saddles. The spring tree is a very very standard tree to find in saddles, so I’m wondering what saddles your two separate chiros are looking at that have the “traditional non-flex trees.”

Apart from what I think of as the “standard” spring tree, there are some Courbettes, which have the “Magic” tree that is supposed to actually FLEX (not just flex a smidge to provide concussion protection while jumping) to fit a range of horses.

There’re brands that have plastic trees, like Kieffers, Prestiges, and Teknas, which are adjusted by heat. I imagine those have less “give” than a spring tree.

(Then you get into the true oddballs like the adjustable gullet saddles, and Wellup trees, which are whole different animals from a “standard” tree.)

What saddles are your chiropractors talking about when they’re talking about “traditional” trees?

NO saddle should bridge, for the record. That’s an indication of a tree shape that doesn’t fit the horse’s back.

I’m going to second the poster who suggests that your saddle might be defective in some way.

[yellowbritches]

Besides the supposedly sore areas, is the horse behaving like a sore horse?

If no, I would take the thought of the chiro with a grain of salt and keep on keeping on. Maybe contact the rep and tell them what you noticed. Maybe get and independent saddle fitter out and see what they think. I’m not big on taking advice about subjects from practitioners that don’t practice what they are commenting on (ie saddle advice from a chiro).

[rabicon]

I have the cheap courbette magic spring tree which is different than a say county tree. I have a county and stubben dressage saddle that work great. Both newer but since I don’t jump a lot I went with the cheaper jump saddle. It has fit just about everything I put it on because it does flex a good bit. I don’t think the county’s etc flex like the magic does. I’d to ask what type of saddle do they prefer over this type.

[candysgirl]

I’ve never been told Stubbens should bridge. I have several and they all fit as they should. No bridging. My horses love them. I do endurance rides and foxhunt in my Roxane. If issues would pop up, they certainly would doing one or both of those things.

[runNjump86]

YB he doesn’t act or feel like anything is wrong, other than our ongoing straightness issue which is caused by a combination of me being crooked and weak on the right and he taking advantage of it. :LOL:

I know they are not fitters, but they do work on backs, which is why it got me thinking so hard. I just don’t want to end up with a saddle that doesn’t fit…

[Kitt]

If the saddle is flexing unevenly, there may well be an issue with the integrity of the tree. You should have a fitter/saddler drop the panels and check the tree.

Spring trees (so called because of the spring bars used to reinforce the wood and allow the tree to flex) are absolutely fine, as are synthetic trees. I’m not a fan of rigid trees that don’t flex - think of wearing a shoe with a solid wooden sole vs. a sole that flexes. And yes, tree shape and type must suit the horse, though panel configuration makes a difference as well (for example, a horse with a dippier back can be fit with a flatter tree if a K/skidrow type panel is used). That said, a saddle that fits well should NOT require extra pads to be usable. If you can post some photos of the saddle on your horse (like the ones here: http://pantherrunsaddlery.com/?page_id=485), you’ll get lots of input on how it’s fitting.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=Karosel;7440756]
As far as I know, spring trees have been used for decades without any ill-effects. I’ve never had any issues with my Albion with a spring-tree. Perhaps yours is defective?[/QUOTE]

I bought a Gibson All Purpose saddle in 1964. It is still in use, the leather is lovely, and it is a spring tree saddle. It was sold to us by Col. F E Gibson, who assured us, it was a really good purchase. :lol: I guess so. Considering that at the time we spent the US equivalent of $125.

[alto]

I have finally got this horse going in a regular program…not riding him for several days, let alone weeks/months makes me want to throw up. Our first event is coming up in March (entries already sent in), so I feel like I’m stuck.

I thought you have a dressage saddle that does fit I agree jumping over 3 feet is no fun in a dressage saddle, but you should be able to continue with his fitting up program & lower jumps while you sort out the saddle issues - as Kitt suggests, drop the panels at a minimum & inspect: if horse gets too sore, there won’t be much point in doing the Event anyway.

Having found the soreness issues - I assume he’s reactive to back palpation, no chiro “magic” needed to discern his soreness - I’d at the very least invest in one of those Ogilvy pads, they have excellent reviews (in my area - sold by Ogilvy as a show vendor & local tack shop) for cushioning horse’s back through the jumping.

ongoing straightness issue

don’t rule out the effect that saddle fit can have on straightness.

Also Running & Jumping tend to be pretty exciting activities for some horses & they will/may demonstrate extraordinary stoicism.

[magicteetango]

I would have the saddle fitter come out for the follow up ASAP, you don’t want to delay on this with a new saddle.

Otherwise, I agree with Alto. I know it’s new and needs broken in, but there’s no way I’d be riding him in a saddle I worried was defective and didn’t fit him. Really not worth it, keep him fit in your dressage and get the fitter out.

[runNjump86]

Thanks all.

It doesn’t help that he’s a pretty stoic horse. He filleted his knee open last fall, requiring twelve stitches, but never reacted when we were poking/prodding/changing bandages etc. On the other hand, my trainer’s young dressage horse acts like you’re murdering him when you dab ointment on any type of wound…:lol:

My Niedersuss dressage saddle doesn’t have a spring tree, or if it does, it doesn’t flex enough for us to tell (we tried flexing it the same way as the Stubben). Both chiropractors said they prefer the type of trees that don’t flex, so that’s what I meant by traditional tree. I honestly didn’t know spring trees had been around that long!

Fitter is coming down ASAP and agrees that it sounds like there is something wrong with the tree. Is it weird that I hope that’s the case and not that my horse is super asymmetrical?!

[GoForAGallop]

@runNjump86;7444248

My Niedersuss dressage saddle doesn’t have a spring tree, or if it does, it doesn’t flex enough for us to tell (we tried flexing it the same way as the Stubben). Both chiropractors said they prefer the type of trees that don’t flex, so that’s what I meant by traditional tree. I honestly didn’t know spring trees had been around that long!

Yes, the Niedersuss has a molded plastic tree.

I am still very very skeptical of a chiropractor who is bad-mouthing a tree type that is found in literally 80% of the big name saddle brands, and has been for decades.

I would continue working with the actual fitter.

[Bogie]

It’s not out of the question that the jumping saddle is defective – some saddles come from the factory unevenly flocked, or a defective tree.

I suppose some horses might not like the flex tree, but I am skeptical of the chiropractors’ statements as those trees are so commonly used in so many saddles.

Depending on how your horse moves vs. his conformation standing still, there might be a very slight bridge in the fit of the saddle (if his back raises while moving it needs a place to go) but no, that’s not typical or desired. Saddles should fit before the bells & whistles. The pad is really to keep the saddle clean.

I would stick with the fitter’s evaluation and would probably ask them to drop the panels on the saddle and inspect the tree. However, you should also contact the manufacturer (Stubben?) to make sure you do not void the warranty in any way. Sometimes you need to have a saddle worked on by a company-sanctioned fitter. I don’t know if that’s the case (I generally buy used saddles) but if there is a problem with the saddle, you want to make sure it’s evaluated the way the company prefers.