Stall floor thoughts; mats or no, drainage, reduce waste, etc

[BroncoMo]

Stall flooring is always a source of indecision for me. I just got back from three weeks worth of QH shows in florida, where I worked for my trainer. I guess essentially “grooming” but we don’t really call it that. We did two circuits, with two distinctly different stall set ups, and they got me to thinking.

Facility 1 had mats on top of concrete. We bedded rather heavily with half pellets and half shavings (ended up being big flakes, even though we requested fine flakes). Stalls picked thoroughly in the morning and a quick pick up of manure in the evenings. We had quite a bit of shavings waste just simply due to urine being trapped on top of the mats, and any amount of stall walking causes the soiled bedding to mix with clean. The urine smell was substantial every morning as I would uncover pee spots and scrape them out. I like to think I’m a fairly effective stall cleaner, but I was kind of surprised at how much bedding was being taken out every day.

Facility 2 was unmated and packed-ish dirt, mostly sand. Fine flake shavings were used. Waste was nearly non existent and I very rarely had to take urine spots out of the stalls. No urine smell, no mixing of soiled and clean bedding. The only thing I could figure was that urine was going straight through the bedding and draining down through the sand. I must have very little experience with cleaning stalls with this setup because I was pleasantly surprised at how easy these stalls were to maintain. Aside from the diggers that would try to get to china throughout the day, and their bedding would mix with sand. But that was still easy to maintain, besides refilling holes twice a day.

So, if you’ve made it this far, here is MY set up at home. I only keep horses in stalls if they need to be under lights (breeding) or for foaling. I have natural dirt, would like to bring in something to fill and compact. Keeping it level is important so my mom doesn’t trip on uneven ground in the stalls. I currently have mats and I bed with pellets (straw on top for newborns) and my biggest complaint is that urine stays on top of the mats and while pellets are wonderful for cleaning, clean and soiled bedding gets mixed when they walk through it. And babies do an awful lot of running around, stirring bedding.

I have always been a proponent for mats since they are easy to clean; I have had issues with clostridium on my ranch so sanitation is of high importance for foaling. But I’m considering going without mats for a few reasons. One, being the cleaning situation and the ease at facility 2 mentioned above. Two being that two months ago I had a long yearling slip on stall mats, did the splits, and broke her pelvis. I’ve seen foals slip on mats, regardless of the depth of bedding, especially at birth when EVERYTHING is wet. Fact is, mats are slippery when wet.

So, again, if you’ve made it this far, tell me some thoughts on kicking mats to the curb. Doing a complete overhaul of the flooring is not in the budget at this very moment, as I have a pregnant mare coming in under lights in the next couple of days. And foaling season is spread out over 3 months this year. Perhaps I can overhaul the flooring this summer. For now, I’m looking to bandaid it.

I could probably bring in some road base or other compactable fill to level the stalls (they are currently bumpy). But scraping down, adding rock, and doing a textbook drainage system will have to wait. Is a dirt floor with no mats asking for disaster? Do they drain as well as they seemed to at facility 2? Is there some magical way of getting urine to drain down when using mats, so that soiled bedding doesn’t mix with clean? Any thoughts on how to clean a dirt floor for foaling? I currently wash mats and walls with tektrol shortly before foaling. Sorry this is super long and rambling, but I work through situations better by talking (typing) them out.

In summary, looking for better draining, possibly ditching mats, and better traction for slippery uncoordinated babies.

[Redlei44]

Interesting what you say about the sand. Many years ago I experienced a laminitic horse being bedded on sand (on top of packed dirt). I remember that it seemed impossible to clean any pee spots like you normally would, and yet I don’t recall the stall stinking, even after the two(?) months the sand remained. I always assumed that the sand must have had a good amount of lime in it that neutralized the ammonia. It wouldn’t have “lasted” forever, though, I assume.

Commercial barns are generally unwilling to put up with a stall base that horses can dig. Too labor intensive to fill them in repeatedly and no desire to deal with mixing dirt and shavings. Sand would be different but hard-pack clay can get just as slippery as mats when wet. Up to you whether you want to put up with those drawbacks.

The tradeoffs you describe sound about right to me. Mats are easy to clean but require a lot of bedding to capture all the urine. A “drainable” base is great in theory, but is either diggable or may not actually drain all that well. Then you’re stuck with urine-soaked base material. Products like stall skins try to split the difference but reviews tend to be mixed.

[Scribbler]

It’s true that pee will drain down into the sand, but doesn’t that mean you will eventually have to replace stinky sand?

I think it would have to depend on your climate and site drainage. I’m only personally familiar with barns in the rainforest climate on high water table properties. I would worry about the dirt stall floors actually getting wet.

I have a stall with runout. Mats on concrete. I like to bed very deeply in winter and the pee spots are out of sight out of mind. However my horse is tidy in her stall. Might not work on every horse.

[BroncoMo]

I too bedded a horse on deep sand during an acute laminitic phase. There were no pee spots to pick, manure was easy to remove. It was efficient enough that I debated on whether there was a way to foal on it. The sand stall was ruined when I left for a three week show and left my dad in charge. He did not pick her stall like I asked (at that point she was allowed a small run and the stall was like 16x20, so not lacking room to get away from the soiled stall). When I returned, the sand was mixed with decomposed, powdery/dried manure (it’s super dry here and manure breaks down easily). So my sand stall experiment was done and gone.

I have not had issues with horses digging here at home. I work a demanding job and have no desire to spend time picking stalls if it’s not necessary. So mares and foals get kicked outside as soon as they possibly can. So stall vices are at a minimum here.

I have wondered about stall skins/savers. I would think the rubber crumbs would stink when saturated? I don’t know if anyone else here has smelled amnionic and other birthing fluids as it sits around for any more than an hour or so, but it’s enough to make my stomach turn just thinking about it.

This may all be a rhetorical conversation with no real solution. But I figured I’d throw it out for ideas before I go and get myself committed to a particular situation for the the next several months.

[BroncoMo]

I would think? Not sure if it just drains down far enough and quick enough? I don’t know the turn over rate at that facility or how long/often those stalls are occupied. I am in a high mountain desert so no concerns about high water tables. But its also not loose/sandy so I guess drainage would be very different. And it may be that here, if I remove the mats, the frozen hard packed ground would still hold urine on top just the same as a mat would.

[Redlei44]

Perhaps others with foaling setups can be more helpful - Maybe also ask your vet what they see when they’re out and about? I can’t imagine that sand or dirt is recommended above what you currently have, regardless of being easier to muck, but you never know.

If you are able to kick your herd out to 24x7 pasture, then you’re already doing better than most

How much bedding do you (or did the trainer in FL) use over the mats? IME, trying to get away with a minimal amount of bedding makes it difficult to control odor and wetness (and slipperyness). Using enough bedding that you have to excavate pee spots from under dry bedding is my preferred depth.

[BroncoMo]

Well considering I live in cow country, my vets won’t be helpful. In fact, a local vet missed the mark completely on my first case of clostridiosis, sending me home with a gravely ill foal and failed to properly educate me on what an infectious disease it was; properly diagnosed, improperly treated with wrong antibiotics. So local vets aren’t a great help around here. I’m always amazed at how people in other places have vets that they can consult with on issues. But I digress…

At that show series, we used 5 bags of pellets and 5 bags of shavings at the first set up. The stalls were tiny; 10x10 at the most. Pee spots definitely had to be uncovered in order to be cleaned out. So they were bedded pretty heavily and added several bags of pellets every couple days. The second facility, we used 5 bags of shavings in stalls that were at least 12x12. So bedded much lighter and in ten days, we did not need to add any. By the time we left, they were getting a touch low. If we had been there much longer, we would have added but they were still plenty comfy. At home I usually bed on the lighter side, but I’m wondering if I need bite the bullet and bed heavier.

[sophie]

The barn where my mare has been boarded for years has stalls with mats over packed dirt. Bedding is sawdust, sometimes shavings. The mats do not stay flat. They curl up, bedding and pee get under them, it’s a mess. They require a lot of bedding for the reasons stated above.

I took the mats out of my mare’s stall because 1) I can’t stand to have them not lay flat, I think it’s dangerous to the horses and 2) she is not a digger or stall walker.
I bed her stall with a reasonable amount of sawdust on top of the packed dirt. I clean her stall every day and add sawdust every 3 days or so. I much prefer sawdust to shavings, as pee spots are easier to take out, and manure much easier to sift. Much less waste than with shavings.

[clanter]

@BroncoMo

we used 5 bags of pellets and 5 bags of shavings at the first set up. The stalls were tiny; 10x10 at the most.

surely not all in one 10by10 stall

[BroncoMo]

Ok so I’m not crazy here then. Unfortunately where I live I am stuck with bagged bedding bought at the big box stores. There is a place I could buy bulk shavings (maybe sawdust too but unsure) from about an hour from me. But hauling, unloading, and storage is an issue. So I haven’t pursued that. But I agree on sawdust as opposed to shavings, especially the large flake kind. Which is why I like pellets; they essentially break down to sawdust and pretty much pick out like kitty litter when they work. When they don’t, I’m stripping stalls every other day with how much a lactating mare pees.

[BroncoMo]

Yes, each stall got 5 bags of each.

[Bluey]

In our race training barn and many around here, the floors were plain clay and it was very slick when wet.
If a horse was doing airs above the ground at meal time, it had to be careful or it may just slip and crash.
Horses also made the floors uneven so much that we had to keep bringing fresh dirt and pack and level and pack and water, etc. often.
That was before mats, pellets or shavings, all we had was straw.
Compared with concrete floors and straw bedding before in Europe, those clay floors were a nightmare.
Since then, all stalls have had ample runs outside and that does make a huge difference on how most horses use the stall for a bathroom and/or walks in there around into a mess.

My suggestion, could you try one test stall only now until you figure what you think works best for you?

[BroncoMo]

Luckily there’s little to no clay here. I have found some very far down in areas that have suffered extreme wind erosion. But the stalls in question are just crappy native dirt; not particularly sandy, just soil-y.

I sure could give one stall a try and see how it goes. Disinfecting scares me a little, so if anyone has suggestions on disinfectants that work in the presence of organic material, please advise. But for now there are only two stalls in question. When I get the time to rip down the little room across the aisle from these, then I’ll make two more foaling stalls. But that’s a little ways away.

[sascha]

@clanter

surely not all in one 10by10 stall

That’s properly bedding a horse instead of doing minimal “bedding” (or TP as I call it) which is the fashion these days thanks to mat companies’ telling people their horses don’t need bedding.

[BroncoMo]

Admittedly I have tried to skimp on bedding in the past and I wonder if I just bed heavy and deep to start with, if the situation will right itself, regardless of the presence of mats. I may try one of each (mat in one, and not the other, and bed both heavily) and see if they’re any different to maintain.

[Bluey]

Clanter used to tell us how he used regular pavers, maybe with sand to set them on and brushed on them, for floors over dirt and then bed over them?

That worked well to let liquids thru far enough to not smell and not be slick.

He may come tell us more?

[sascha]

Barn I used to board at did that 20 some years ago. They eventually stopped draining. Horses on minimal bedding and not huge amounts of turnout got bedsores or didn’t lie down much.

Mats over top with minimal bedding was ok’ish.

Mats over top with proper bedding was fine.

[lenapesadie]

For real. It’s one thing if the horses are only in stalls an hour or two per day, but when the bedding is skimpy under a horse stalled for 12+ hrs a day it is disgusting. One 12x12 of excrement. Mats or no mats. Granted board would go up significantly if more bedding was supplied.

Personally I can’t wait to get my horse moved home. I’m bout tired of dealing with boarding.

[clanter]

I can not believe you could even find the horse in a 10by10 with ten bags of shavings even if 5 are pellets and five are compress flakes

if the bags are the same as we use that is 200 pounds of pellets, then 40 cubic feet of compressed flaked shavings … I guess then there would be well over a foot of bedding? (Are the pellets wetted or dry?)

Our main barn is as Bluey noted has a flooring of Pavestone pavers that is on a base of crushed limestone road base topped with I think it was four or five inches of sand then the pavers. The pavers are concrete, shaped like a capital I which are interlocking. The stalls then have 3/4 inch 4by6 stall mats. (this barn is not big at 24 by 36 but there is over 100,000 pounds of material in the flooring)

Two stalls we installed a center drain thinking we would need to wash them down every now and then… but the drains have never been used.

We bed with various products but mostly pellets and small flaked pine shavings. Stalls a 12by12 so two bags of flake and one bag of dry pellets in the pee spots. (evidently meagerly bedded by some standards since )

We use a plastic grain scoop to remove the wet bedding… None remains as the scoop is a wonderful at getting it up.

We do not have urine under the mats.

We have one horse (Socrates) who is allergic to pine so he is bedded on shredded straw which really does not absorb urine well. His stall is hard to clean as the straw even being shredded is a pain, the the wet spots are swept, PDZ sprinkled then rebedded as necessary

if the horses are up, the stalls are picked two to three times a day

[B_and_B]

I don’t use a this barn anymore, though not for reasons of stabling. But, I will say that my absolute favorite stall floor was heavy, rough sawn (2"x8" oak) boards loosely butted against each other. With (and this is why it worked) a crawl space beneath (post and beam barn on stone piers). And then sawdust as the bedding. Excess urine/moisture drained through the floor, rough sawn wood is not slippery, and the shaving were easy to clean. It was a flexible floor with noticeable travel when all the horses came in, yet that made it more comfortable.
That being said, no one is building that sort of barn anymore! It was built a century and a half ago and was in constant use for most of its life.