Stall kicker - at my wit's end, kicking chains or QuitKick?

[spencerlucy]

My 16 yr old gelding has recently ramped up his stall kicking behavior to the point that I hauled him in to our equine hospital for a lameness workup. Said gelding was a stallion (and a pretty naughty one) until he was 8, was never bred or collected but has always been rather territorial. I purchased him 4 years ago and aside from him making ugly faces at passing horses in the arena and horses walking past his stall, he would occasionally kick but over the past 8 weeks or so it has gotten out of hand. He’s hock sore on the left hock so when he was at the clinic we elected to shockwave the hock and he went on bute for a week as well as a month of Gastrogard to rule out any ulcers that may be bothering him. The bute took care of the soreness and he went back into full work plus we rebuilt his stall extending the rubber mats from the floor all the way up the solid walls. Two days after this expensive renovation project he kicked the back wall so hard he blew up a section of 2x10 into his neighbors stall. - through the 3/4" mat.

I pulled blood last week to check his hormone levels and we shockwaved the hock again, and then he spent the weekend kicking the crap out of his stall again.

He was shown a couple of times this summer and off property he was well behaved, no ugly faces at passers-by either in the warm-up or in his stall. We do tend to get an end stall for him and then have our tack stall next to him before another horse but the facility where we show the stalls have spaces in between the boards and he tends to stand staring through the slats watching neighboring horses but doesn’t vocalize or act out.

I am at the end of my rope with this - he is continually injuring himself with this nonsense not to mention the cost of rebuilding his stall. Ideally I’d like to turn him out 24/7 but my trainer’s facility doesn’t have that kind of set up. I ordered kicking chains but my experience with them is limited and not positive - the one mare I saw someone put on totally lost her can when the chain hit her after a kick and it was pretty scary. I do think my gelding is fairly sensible but who knows. I also have come across posts about the QuitKick stall system but it looks like the US business no longer exists - does anyone have a unit they are looking to sell?

If all else fails I’m tempted to turn him out with our resident cow and see what he thinks of that. I’m not sure the cow would appreciate his antics. (no I’m not seriously thinking of doing this)

Has anyone cured a studdy gelding of this obnoxious behavior?

[Scribbler]

Honestly I’d do 24/7 turnout.

[joiedevie99]

I’d put him out with the cow! I’d also get back with the vet about some additional diagnostics, since this is new behavior.

[Bluey]

Does he only kick with a neighbor, or just in general?

If you can fix an isolated stall, far enough from others so he doesn’t feel he needs to let them know his displeasure with their existence, would your situation permit trying such arrangement?

[endlessclimb]

Chains.

You’re being kind going through all the diagnostics. Pain or not, this is not acceptable and puts himself and other horses at risk. The mare you saw lost her can because for the first time there was an immediate consequence to her bad behavior and she couldn’t figure out where it came from.

Good.

I tend to use a dog collar with a length of medium chain, and I put it above the hock. That way there’s no way he can step on it, like with the ankle ones.

[OzarksRider]

@spencerlucy

If all else fails I’m tempted to turn him out with our resident cow and see what he thinks of that

Actually, turning him out with a cow may not be such a bad idea. It sounds like your horse is frustrated and unhappy with his current living arrangements, and he’s telling you about it the only way he knows how. You’ve treated for possible ulcers and hock pain, and you say he behaved better when he was at shows where he can see neighboring horses. And if he did have ulcers, they could have been caused by the stress from his frustration. To me, all of this points to a problem with his living arrangement. And if this is the problem, the solution is to fix his living arrangements, not use kick chains or drugs.

Can he see out of his current stall? Or is he totally boxed in and alone? How much turnout does he get? Does he have room to run? Or is his turnout confined to a small run? How do you think he would behave if he was turned out with the cow? Many people pasture horses and cows together, and a vet once told me one advantage to that is that cows and horses don’t get the same parasites, so they can’t infect each other. If you can do it safely for both your horse and the cow, maybe you should try turning them out together.

[Scribbler]

My interpretation is that the horse is seriously unhappy in the stall, and I think 24/7 turnout if you can until the snow falls would do wonders to reset his mood. As far as the mare flipping out. You have a horse wall kicking out of some combination of anxiety and territorialness. Horse calculates that it’s safe to kick the wall because the other horse can’t reach her. Suddenly there is something around her legs that she can’t see attacking her for her anxiety based activity. She panics.

Full time turnout honestly solves a lot of issues.

[endlessclimb]

@Scribbler

She panics.

… and hopefully rethinks kicking in the future.

[Scribbler]

@endlessclimb

@Scribbler

She panics.

… and hopefully rethinks kicking in the future.

But you haven’t solved the underlying anxiety just the expression of it.

[endlessclimb]

That’s fine, because now the property damage and potential injury to the horse or their neighbors have stopped. The anxiety doesn’t go away when they kick, either.

There are acceptable and unacceptable ways to express anxiety. Kicking falls under the latter.

[JBCool]

@spencerlucy

but over the past 8 weeks or so it has gotten out of hand.

Try to remember if anything at the barn change 2-3 months ago? New routine? Extra work? Less or changed turnout? Feed switch? But, yes, I agree with others that something has him unhappy enough to resort to dangerous behavior. Time to think past the behavior itself to change some things you can work with to find him a happier situation.

Simple example, I had a horse who was as sweet as pie, but in one boarding situation started making horrible faces at his stall neighbor, biting at her and (I think) semi-kicking the wall. We moved his hay to the other side of the stall and there was peace in the valley. I figured he thought she might steal it, but we joked maybe she was saying nasty things about his mother in horse.

[Bluey]

When you went up the walls with mats, did you hang the mats from a 2"x4" so there was a 2" space behind the mat?

That has worked for a horse that had that problem.
Hanging 3/4" stall 6’ mats loose with a space behind them before the wall, horse kicked but it didn’t hit solid enough to make noise or horse get hurt.
He only kicked at the wall between stalls, not the others.
Also neighbor horse was changed to a different stall.

We had one older gelding that would ram the stall wall between him and his neighbors, to the point he kept needing stitches on his shoulder.
Finding a horse he liked ended that.

Horses, they do march to their own drummer some times …

[RedMareDontCare]

Had the same problem with my mare. She was never a fan of her neighbours, but the most she ever did was a mean face and cocked leg. Not sure what happened but she suddenly developed a severe kicking issue virtually overnight. I mean she was kicking out multiple bars every day. (See image for her and one of her masterpieces) IMG_0335.HEIC (1.0 MB)

Not going to lie, I was NOT keen on putting kicking chains on her, but the owner of my farm and I were at our wit’s end and the issue was not getting any better. She had a bit of a panic the first few times she stepped on the chains and a couple of scrapes on the inside of her legs the day after putting them on. However, her entire attitude changed very quickly. No more kicking, no more (or minimal, she is red lol) mean faces, and she was just quieter in her stall overall. These behaviours continued after we took them off and even many months later.

I wasn’t happy about them, but I honestly would’ve done it sooner if I knew what a difference they’d make.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

@spencerlucy

If all else fails I’m tempted to turn him out with our resident cow and see what he thinks of that. I’m not sure the cow would appreciate his antics. (no I’m not seriously thinking of doing this)

Why not do it? My three are out with cows 24/7 in a large pasture. Everyone is happy and well-adjusted.

Clearly, your horse needs something else - what that is, I don’t know, but turnout for a few weeks isn’t the worst idea in the world.

[FjordBCRF]

@RedMareDontCare

I mean she was kicking out multiple bars every day. (See image for her and one of her masterpieces)

She looks pleased with herself

[beowulf]

@Scribbler

Full time turnout honestly solves a lot of issues.

I agree with everything Scribbler just wrote. Your horse is telling you he doesn’t like being in a stall. It’s up to you to listen. As a general rule I dislike measures that punish communication - so I would not be keen on chains on a horse. It would be better to isolate why the kicking is happening.

I’m a big believer in Occam’s Razor when it comes to diagnosing horses. Behavioral changes in a competition horse combined with expression of stall vices/stereotypies? First thing that comes to mind is ulcers. If you can’t scope him, look into Nexium and see if you see a difference after 30 days.

I quoted one part of Scribber’s post above because I just took in my main horse for his second clinical exam this month. He has had since early June off because he’s NQR and we’ve been trying various diagnostics; we pulled a Lyme titer and he was positive, but the vet didn’t want to pursue any more diagnostics until the Lyme was treated. So we treated the Lyme, he’s had all of July and August off, and he went in for a ridden exam (W/T/C) yesterday at a new clinic. When the vet realized he hadn’t been ridden he said “are you sure you’re okay with getting on this horse? What if he is fresh with all that time off? Is he going to be behaved in a new ring/venue?” They could not believe how calm and behaved he was for a horse that hasn’t been ridden in nearly 3 months.

They don’t realize my secret to a good horse is 24/7 turnout. It seriously makes them so much happier. I could never go back to stalls.

[RedMareDontCare]

She certainly was. Red mares

[Jealoushe]

@RedMareDontCare

Red mares

are the BEST…and sweetest and kindest

[spencerlucy]

Thanks for all the input. I am in total agreement that 24/7 turnout is ideal. Three years ago he had six months off due to an unrelated injury and spent that time at my trainer’s old house where she had the perfect set up for him - a stall with a run out to a 1 acre pasture with other horses he could see but no shared fence lines. He loved it there. She no longer has that property (she built her dream house on the training barn property) and the training barn has loads of great turn out but isn’t necessarily set up for 24/7. I don’t think he’d enjoy be outside totally alone when all the other horses are in overnight so there’s that too.

I did put him on a month of Gastrogard and it made no difference whatsoever.

I do think the majority of his aggression is towards the gelding next to him. He has a neighbor behind him but judging from the teeth marks on the shared wall with the gelding and kick marks on the shared wall that seems yo be the focus of his displeasure. He doesn’t have a neighbor on the other side and the front of his stall is a grill front to the aisle with other horses across from him and he can see outside from his stall.

The mats are firmly attached to the wall - I didn’t see the posts about hanging them off the wall slightly but we might make that adjustment.

Moving him elsewhere isn’t an option I’m keen on. I moved to this area 15 years ago and have felt so very lucky to have found this barn and trainer. I also board my 26 yr old semi-retired gelding here so splitting them up between two places is a logistical nightmare. Perhaps there is a way that my two geldings could go out at night in paddocks where they can see each other but not be directly adjacent. I’ll discuss it with my trainer.

[spencerlucy]

The cow totally freaks him out. She lives in a pasture at the other end of the property and she and her companion first arrived I took him over to meet them and he was absolutely beside himself. I would be genuinely concerned for the cows well-being and that he might go through a fence.