Stallion for Furst Heinrich/Donnerhall/Rubinstein mare

[Ride4Life]

I’m looking for help deciding on the stallion to use on this mare for 2014. Her full pedigree is: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dream+first

My goal is to breed a horse with the highest talent possible for dressage, but with a temperament that an ammy could handle and ride happily. Between 16 and 16.2 hands would be perfect. I would prefer a black but any color is fine. She is registered and in the main mare book with Oldenburg, but I would like a Hanoverian stallion since I prefer to deal with the Hanoverian society. But that’s not a priority.

This mare is my absolute dream horse in looks and movement, she is 16.2 1/2, black, beautiful head and conformation. She has a powerful hind leg but can be tight in the back, and three equally nice gaits with tons of impulsion. She has a nice jump for a dressage bred mare and I would like to keep or improve on this quality. The main thing I want to improve is her temperament. She can be herd bound and is a worrier which makes her hot at shows and in strange environments when her buddies aren’t right with her. It is nothing that can’t be worked through, it just takes a little more time to get her to relax and not be tight in her back, neck and jaw under saddle. On the ground she can be a little disrespectful and pushy. I don’t know if it was a lack of early handling, bad early handling or just her nature but it’s not something I have been able to train her out of no matter how much ground work I put in.

Conversely she is BRAVE and the least spooky horse I have ever ridden. She is a joy to jump and will take on anything you point her at. I always joke that if I were ever riding into battle she would be the horse I’d choose to ride. She would have been a serious warhorse! =) She has great quality of hoof and good bone, but is slightly toed in with a teeny, tiny bit of an underslung heel. These are VERY slight imperfections that I could live with in a foal from her but I do want to choose a stallion known for siring good foundations as well as temperament.

Before anyone goes there because of the flaws I have mentioned, yes she does deserve to be bred and I would take an exact replica of her. Every horse has flaws, and I feel her strengths greatly outnumber her weaknesses.

She has an embryo transfer filly bred by her former owner and sired by Baron Von Gogh who would be three now but I have been unsuccessful in getting any updates other than that they love her.

She is currently in foal to Rosenthal. I felt he would improve the temperament and correctness of front legs while not taking away from her movement. I have a Rosenthal gelding from a different mare who is the easiest, most fun horse ever to be around and ride and was a big improvement over the dam so that guided my decision quite a bit. He’s more like a big goofy black lab than a horse, and that’s the kind of temperament I’m looking for.

The stallions on my list are Rascalino, Bellissimo M, Rosenthal and Roi du Soleil. I’m a big fan of the R line obviously but am open to other suggestions as well. I would love to add Argentinus blood. She already has Donnerhall twice pretty close up so I’m not comfortable adding any more Donnerhall blood.

There doesn’t seem to be any one proven cross I can find for Furst Heinrich mares, but if anyone knows of any please speak up.

Thanks!

[Blume_Farm]

Without seeing you mare it is hard to really give advice. However, the B-line horses are generally known for good ride ability and Belissimo M has been quite prolific. I am not sure though the heritability of fundamentals for him…someone could probably get you some info regarding that through the Stallion Yearbook.

Sounds like a lovely mare though!

[Ride4Life]

Thanks Blume!! Here is a video of her, please excuse my terrible riding. The mare has much more talent than me! http://youtu.be/-TXaUyIuq-g

[Ticker]

I was unable to open the link to her pedigree, but based on the information provided, here are my thoughts.
You say she is currently in foal to Rosanthal, who is a direct Rubinstein son. Your mare is a Rubinstein grand daughter on the dam line. Her sire and dam have Donnerhall up close. This means that the foal you are expecting is double Rubinstein and double Donnerhall…this is a well known breeding ‘nick’ that works very very well for temperament, rideabilty and performance.

I would wait until you see the resulting foal before looking for a different stallion.
I have been told that this type of pedigree is often very much in demand because of the rideabilty. Good Luck! Share pictures when your foal arrives.

[Marydell]

I agree with waiting to see what you get with this foal. I like the Rosenthals that I have seen quite well.

That being said, I own a Fuerst Heinrich/Rotspon/Argentinus mare that I have bred to Don Principe (Donnerhall/Prince Thatch xx) several times and have had some of the best horses in my career. I think it is the double Donnerhall crossed with the double Argentan. They are all super leggy and modern. The very best temperments and gaits.

Take a look at Rotspon himself. Excellent frozen. Gives you the Rubinstein and Argentan.

I own a Don Principe filly in Germany out of a Belissimo M/Fuerst Heinrich dam. The dam is small (16.0)but scored several 10s. and 9s on her MPT and an overall high 8. She is now going to do performance as her owners are thrilled with her gaits and ridability. So there is a reason to look closely at Belissimo M.

[Ride4Life]

Thanks Ticker & Marydell! I really appreciate your opinions.

I’m hoping to make a decision on what stallion to use before she foals. She is due late in the season and I’m afraid if I wait around I won’t be able to get frozen semen if that’s the way I choose to go. Plus I’m sure the foal from her and Rosenthal will be gorgeous but I won’t be able to tell much about the temperament and ridability of the foal before her foal heat. Since she is due so late we’re breeding her back on her foal heat so she we can move her due date up slightly for 2015.

Do you think that a foal from Bellissimo would have more movement and upper level talent for Grand Prix than a foal from Rosenthal or Rascalino?

Marydell - do you have any pictures or video you could share of the Bellissimo M/Furst Heinrich mare in germany? Is she a big bodied 16h that takes up your leg and still looks big or a refined & small 16h?

[Ticker]

Well, of all the choices you listed, I would have to vote for Belissimo M as well.

[Moose_Tail_Farm]

Rosenthal was a great choice for her, and I would go back to him. One of his many attributes is the consistent excellent temperament and ridability in his offspring. I am a confirmed devotee of the R line, also of the D line – and believe totally in the crossing of the 2 lines is spectacular, and then some!

[Ride4Life]

I am really excited about Bellissimo! But when I went and looked at superior equine sire’s conception rate statistics (what a great tool) it made me think twice about using frozen on her. My goal is to move her foaling date up. I decided that I don’t have the stomach to buy a $950 dose of semen and take a chance of it not working. Then I would have a missed cycle and have to buy fresh anyway. With my luck that’s exactly what will happen and I’ll end up spending double the amount to get her in foal.

Bummer because I love Bellissimo M! Maybe I’ll try in the next couple of years.

I think I may just put her back to Rosenthal, but I’ll have a look at the US Hano & Oldenbug rosters. Benidetto is nice but for some reason I’m just not as crazy about him.

[Blume_Farm]

If you are going to go fresh take a look at Liberty Gold. He has produced a HUGE percentage of EM/ EMC mares and very ammy friendly offspring with good gaits. Not sure conformationally if they are a good match, you may want to speak to the guys at Hilton Farm and ask them.

[Donella]

The Belissimo M semen is really proven. I am sure there are few that haven’t had success with it (myself included) but it is known to be good with many positive results. I myself am trying again this year.

[Ride4Life]

Thanks everyone!

I think I am going to put her back to Rosenthal for now. I looked at a lot of stallions available fresh but I just couldn’t justify a different stallion when Rosenthal reliably produces everything that I’m looking for. Plus I have never enjoyed being around and riding a horse as much as my Rosenthal gelding. He’s just a joy. If everything works out I’m going to try Bellissimo in a couple of years when I have more time to use frozen on her.

I know the Bellissimo frozen is proven, but frozen seems to always be more expensive and less successful than fresh. And with my horse luck everything that can possibly go wrong will. I hadn’t thought that through completely until after I posted asking about stallions that are only available frozen.

I’ll post pictures when the foal comes! So excited!

[Ride4Life]

An update - she foaled an absolutely stunning black colt by Rosenthal with 3 white socks and a few hairs of white on his forehead. Delivery went well and both baby & mare are healthy & happy. He was born Aug 1st, looking a bit like a donkey with some awesomely huge ears. (I love big ears!) He’s growing into it nicely though and it looks like he’ll be quite the stunner. He has the absolute best temperament of any foal I’ve ever worked with including my other Rosenthal. The mare turned out to be an excellent mother as well and seems to have been meant to be a broodmare. Just could not be happier with the little guy and am so excited about his future! I’ll have to post some pictures soon! GOV did their inspection here on July 30th and he wasn’t born yet so he will have to be presented as a yearling.

We had a lot of expenses and personal things going on and the flies have been terrible this year. So we ended up leaving her open and are tentatively planning to breed her next spring so she has an earlier foal. I’ve been looking at a lot of stallions but the next one will be for sale so I need to see what the most marketable cross will be. We’ve been tossing around the idea of leasing her out for a custom foal or something but not sure about how to make it work.

[flyinghorse]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7523421]
If you are going to go fresh take a look at Liberty Gold. He has produced a HUGE percentage of EM/ EMC mares and very ammy friendly offspring with good gaits. Not sure conformationally if they are a good match, you may want to speak to the guys at Hilton Farm and ask them.[/QUOTE]

I have had three Liberty Gold offspring, two out of a Donnerhall mare…they have a tremendous work ethic, and give 120% every time! but they do mature slowly. I absolutely love, and could not part with the Liberty Gold EM that I kept of the three. All three were EE, and two were Champions of their MPT. The third went to an AA dressage rider, and did not do MPT.

[Sunnydays]

My friend’s mare is Florencio / Donnerhall / Rubinstein. She has had 2 very good fillies from the B-line stallion, Belasteros and Beltano. Her in-utero foal is by Londontimes.