Stallion Management

[CERT]

Technically not Sport Horse, but certainly breeding so it’s here.

This is still in the hypothetical stages. We are planning on purchasing a Belgian Draft colt. He is about three months now and we’ll be having him shipped over middle to end of October. The initial thought of course is to geld him and train him up for driving and some riding. BUT… always a but … he is nice quality and we’ve had thoughts about breeding our currently three year-old BelgianxHafliger mare back to a Belgian stud in the next couple years. To my knowledge there are no nice Belgian studs in our state and most of the ones we have seen ads for don’t ship semen and it’d be 8, 12, or more hours to trailer to anything decent so we have vague thoughts of leaving him intact.

I do have a lot of horse experience. I have taken several horses from foal to starting under saddle and in harness along with retraining and working with fully mature horses. What I don’t have is experience handling and raising intact colts into mature and decent stallions. I am also aware that people with less experience than me have owned stallions and not made a complete mess of it so that gives me a little confidence that thia might be not entirely a bad idea.

I imagine the basics are the same, but dealing with a colt that suddenly realizes what ladies are for is the big question mark. That said I do have space and a couple geldings he could hang with and learn normal horse manners from so he doesn’t become an antisocial nutjob. My other thought is also letting him hang with the mares until he’s about a year old, long enough to learn how to socialize with them, but hopefully well before horomones become an issue.

For those of you with the experience I lack:
What is different about bringing up an intact colt?
How do you ensure he minds his manners around ladies when he is doing his work job? (I imagine this is similar to getting any horse to focus on you instead of socializing, but I’d rather assume I don’t know than miss out on learning opportunities.)
​​​​​Thoughts on breeding in-hand or pasture breeding? (Obviously a few years down the line.)
Since the goal would be to get a foal or two out of this specific cross because we have no desire to stand a stud and deal with others’ mares, experiences with late-geldings with past experience in the breeding shed is also appreciated.

Thank you in advance for helping to either foster or extinguish this kernal of an idea.

[skydy]

The phrase, that you would consider leaving the colt to “hang with the mares until he’s about a year old…hopefully before hormones become an issue” needs consideration.

Unless you are willing to gamble regarding this colt’s hormones then you’d better be prepared to accept the consequences behaviorally and reproductively of leaving a yearling colt pastured with mares . He may be quite game at that age and whether or not he impregnates a mare he may have one hell of a field day trying. If he is precocious he may either reproduce or get hurt trying, neither of which seems an ideal outcome for a yearling.

I would suggest reading every good book that you can find regarding breeding and stallion handling and after you’ve done that, look at the horse in front of you and if needs be, ask more specific questions geared to your colt’s behavior. It would take a book written here, to answer such a general question.

As you know there are very expert people here who can help (and perhaps some folks will refer you to the texts they find to be best for your situation) but do read up to get the basics.

Well done you to think well ahead of the time!

[Anne]

Geld. It.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

If you really wanted to pursue the option to breed for personal use, down the road, then maybe keeping him intact only long enough to collect and freeze doses is an option. But it’s expensive, you would still have to handle an intact stallion for a while, and there is no guarantee your colt will freeze well. I also believe gelding later is harder on the horse, and he may develop long lasting stud behavior.

Another thing to look into is registration possibilities. Is a 3/4 Belgian 1/4 Haflinger eligible for papers? By what registry (I’m assuming there is a Belgian Draft Association)? Are the potential stud and your mare already registered? Do they have approval or inspection requirements of any kind with the Association prior to breeding a stallion or mares? Are you prepared logistically and financially to pursue satisfying all requirements?

I’m not a fan of breeding unregistered/unregisterable horses. Just being honest. And there are a tragic number of unregistered Belgian crosses who have met their end - in a gruesome way - in slaughter plants… Just a thought.

[JB]

IMHO any colt older than 6 months needs to be kept away from any mares, so right off the bat, I wouldn’t consider putting him with mares until he’s a year-ish. Boys-only club

You say he’s “nice quality”. Why didn’t you say “he’s exceptional quality with impeccable breeding”? I hope that doesn’t come across as snarky, I’m just curious if your choice of wording is telling as to his quality. Nice stallions make great geldings.

It’s far less cost and time to ship a mare to an out of state, exceptional stallion, than to raise an intact colt who is convenient, but may not be the right match for your mare.

I also wonder the possibility and value of registering a 3/4 Belgian 1/4 Haffie.

Pasture breeding is a good way to get the stallion or mare injured, possibly irreparably. Live cover is less risky, but still has a great deal of risk, and not something you just do yourself without other experienced hands on deck.

This does not sound like a good idea for just 1-2 foals down the road. At the very most, the idea of doing some collections as a 2yo, even a 3yo, then freezing and gelding, is the better path. He can live with the boys until then, you can work his training as if your and his life depend on it, and hope he freezes well enough, and that your mare takes with frozen. That still leaves the registration questions open.

But at least then you’ll have a 2-3yo gelding who can then go on to live a fantastic gelding life

[CERT]

This is why I ask questions!

I need to refresh myself as my Equine Repro class was over 10 years ago! I was thinking that sexual maturity was typically between 18 months and two years, but this is where those with practical experience can speak more to it than I can.

@skydy I wasn’t sure if early socialization before the onset of sexual maturity would be beneficial. Our herd is currently mixed geldings and mares who all get along pretty well, but it wouldn’t be a problem to separate the boys out with the arrival of the new colt. He won’t be here until the middle of October so there is still plenty of time to think and prepare.

@Virginia Horse Mom And these are the types of things we’re considering. We don’t want lasting negative stud behavior in a gelding. We do have an aquaintence who is on my list of people to contact and talk to should we want to push beyond just thinking about it that breeds Shires and uses his stud in his eight up hitch with a mix of geldings and mares, no issue. I know of, but haven’t personally worked with several draft stallions that have no issue being hitched with mares and being gentlemen working or standing tied around them. They’ve got their work clothes on, no socializing.
​
Draft crosses can be registered through the Draft Cross Breeders and Owners Association. They even have an All Breeds Award through USDF. I am in the process of registering our filly, just need to get her conformation pictures taken to send in.
​​​
@JB Boys only club we can do. I only say “nice quality” instead of “exceptional” because we haven’t seen him in person yet and the current photos and video we have are not the best. He looks VERY good for his age and the less than flattering pictures. The breeder will be getting us some better ones this week and we’ll be able to make a better assessment. We’ve known the breeder for a few years, have seen the overall quality of his stock, and trust him, otherwise we wouldn’t entertain the idea of acquiring a horse we haven’t put our hands on.

The AI option would be nice, but I am unsure about access to a phantom for collection that would handle his potential size even as a 2-3 y/o.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Draft Cross Breeders and Owners Association - With an awards program Really neat. I know some people with crosses they really enjoy, and compete successfully or hunt - I always wondered how they registered though, or if they did at all.

I have nothing against crosses… I just am not a fan of unregistered horses, or unregistered Draft crosses that are misleadingly (or ignorantly) marketed as “Warmblood” etc, etc. It’s good to hear there is an association dedicated to these animals, tracking pedigrees and recognizing good performance, and promoting them honestly on their own merits.

[JB]

@CERT

The AI option would be nice, but I am unsure about access to a phantom for collection that would handle his potential size even as a 2-3 y/o.

How far are you from Equine Reproduction in Oklahoma? I’d at least give them a call for a consultation on possible options for collection and freezing.

[Texarkana]

I grew up with arabs, a breed where half the owners are living out a childhood “Black Stallion” fantasy. I make that tongue and cheek comment not in a derogatory manner, but rather to emphasize that there were a lot of ungelded horses around throughout my childhood. Arabs are one of the few breeds where they have “junior to ride” stallion classes. I took that experience with me into the racing and sporthorse breeding worlds.

The best advice I can give you is to socialize him as much as possible. The worst thing you can do is raise him differently because he’s a colt.

Depending on the situation, personally, I would not take issue to turning him out with mares in the fall, so long as you trust them with a weanling. He’ll still be well under a year and they should be in anestrous. Now, come late winter/early spring when they start to cycle- different story. Unless you happen to have any pregnant mares around, who are the absolute best at raising stallions. All of the alpha attitude, none of the pregnancy risk. :lol: But otherwise, find him boyfriends, preferably no nonsense ones.

Give him friends. Stable him in the vicinity of mares. Expose him to stuff. Be on guard in the sense that you need to be aware that his hormones can give him a major brain fart at any moment, but don’t treat him any differently than any other young horse.

[CERT]

@JB Looked it up and it’s almost a thousand miles and about a 16 hour drive, which means it would be a two day trip one way. I’m in Arizona so something in Colorado or California would be more feasible. In all likelihood this is an exercise in curiosity and we’d be more likely to invest in another weanling that is already on the ground.

​@Virginia Horse Mom I was really excited to find out about the Draft Cross association. I believe in purpose-breeding, whether it is purebred or a cross and I’m happy to see associations like the Draft Cross that help people track pedigrees. Of course it is the training that is the greater safeguard.

@Texarkana Thank you! I know the surest way to make a nutcase it to isolate them. I appreciate your advise and experience!

[RMSSport]

I can tell you that for me, my stallion has been a dream. He’s easy to handle, easier than most of my geldings, great personality. I’m very happy with him this far. But that didn’t happen on accident, it was a combination of his bloodlines being known for good dispositions and very firm but fair ground work constantly. Things I would let the geldings get away with I would never let him do. If he so much as thought about threatening me or being dominant to me, I took care of it right away. If he gets over eager for treats and lips me, he gets whacked. If he doesn’t want to go somewhere or is acting fresh, chain and whip. I’m used to dealing with awful awful horses though so my normal may be different from the average.

I will say though that his half brother had to be gelded even though in every regard he was a stallion prospect because by a year and a half he was unmanageable despite he best handling.

Don’t do it if you don’t know what you are doing.

As far as when it comes time to do he deed. We always ALWAYS AI even though we have mares on site. There’s far too much risk all around if you don’t. It’s more expensive sure, but worth the money unless you want lame horses or broken bones.

[RMSSport]

Also one more side note to the above. He does not and has not gone out with anyone. He can see the other horses and interact with them a bit, he’s not in total isolation, but I had a weird problem with him, and that was literally every horse/pony/baby I put out with him beat the crap out him and I had to pull them out. That’s super unusual though. If I could have a Gelding out with him I would, but he seems sane enough as long as he’s not in total isolation.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Avalon equine did a really informative blog about stallion management recently CERT. They are the same folks as Equine Reproduction in Oklahoma, and have lots of great articles and blog posts on many breeding related topics.

Here’s a link to the stallion management blog.

http://www.avalon-equine.com/blog---avalon-activities/healthy-stallion-management-by-jos-mottershead

One thought… If you are talking about a Belgian Draft stud living within sight of mares on a property… I hope you have REALLY good fencing. My neighbors draft cross gelding routinely pushes out of her hotwire when she hacks out his only companion (a mare) in our neighborhood. He’s a pretty pushy and determined gelding, and this has happened multiple times. According to my neighbor, draft breeds pushing through a variety of fencing when the inclination strikes is not uncommon. You may want to chat with someone who has managed a draft stud, and see what other considerations along those lines, particular to them are important to think through.

[Texarkana]

@RMSSport

Also one more side note to the above. He does not and has not gone out with anyone. He can see the other horses and interact with them a bit, he’s not in total isolation, but I had a weird problem with him, and that was literally every horse/pony/baby I put out with him beat the crap out him and I had to pull them out. That’s super unusual though.

This is actually not “super” unusual in my experience. A lot of stallions are low man on the totem pole.

Stallions’ tendency to fight, while testosterone fueled, is a learned behavior. If no one shows them that fighting or rough housing is an option, they often never figure it out.

Many reputable breeding farms separate their weanlings into a fillies pasture and a colts pasture. While standard practice, it’s not a practice that I like. Because as the colts’ hormones kick in, with no one to keep them in check, their herd often becomes Wrestle Mania. And then you have to teach them that humans and other horses do not want to participate in Wrestle Mania, which can be a challenge depending on the colt’s personality.

I’d rather they never learn to fight in the first place. Turning them out alone, like your stallion, can work. But it makes the human’s job more difficult to instill appropriate social skills. You had the ability to do so, but many people don’t. So if a herd of crabby, older horses can do the work of bringing up a colt for me, I’m happy to let them do so.

While we certainly had the odd bad or aggressive stallion around, I did not know stallions were something to be collectively “feared” until I went off to college. But I also did not realize in my youth that many handle stallions with kid gloves and raise them as social pariahs.

[omare]

it is going to be an individual thing–I am not fond of the idea of group turnout as I hate vet bills and some youngsters will just keep at it messing with the herd individuals no matter how many times they are set down. The main downside I see is while I assume a draft cross stallion maybe naturally more laid back–if they are not, I agree with prior poster that is a lot of weight to throw around… Draft crosses can be hard on fences…

[CERT]

@RMSSport Thanks for sharing! My Arab gelding has always been bottom man. If the previous owner is to be believed, he wasn’t gelded until he was five years old. Stallions aren’t necessarily the most dominant horse in the herd!

@Virginia Horse Mom I read the blog post, thank you! We have owned several full drafts. One of them, a large gelding who had some studdish tendencies so we’ve had a preview of what drafts can do to fences. Jed used to climb our panels like a ladder. A string of hot wire was enough to discourage him.

@Texarkana Wrestlemania is right! As the mother of three boys I appreciate the trouble unsupervised, young males can get into.

@omare Full draft stud and as noted above, we’ve had experience with how hard drafts can be on fences!

[Texarkana]

Just to be clear, I’m not condoning tossing any adult stallions out with the herd without knowledge of their past. That would be a recipe for disaster. (Not that anyone mentioned that; I just felt like I needed a COTH CYA)

But since you have the opportunity to raise this guy up, give him the most natural and well socialized life possible. That’s how good citizen stallions are made.

Good luck with your endeavors!

[CERT]

@Texarkana

Just to be clear, I’m not condoning tossing any adult stallions out with the herd without knowledge of their past. That would be a recipe for disaster. (Not that anyone mentioned that; I just felt like I needed a COTH CYA)

But since you have the opportunity to raise this guy up, give him the most natural and well socialized life possible. That’s how good citizen stallions are made.

Good luck with your endeavors!

O dear that, would be a disaster!

Thanks! We’re having a lot of thoughts and haven’t decided one way or another just yet, but we have some time to consider the options and what we really want moving forward.

[CERT]

Update! The colt arrived in October and after his initial quarantine period (including tick baths, ug) he moved over by the rest of the herd and was slowly introduced to herd life. The Arab gelding is so excited to have someone to play bitey face with. Iur youngest mare thinks he’s the worst, except for when she came into heat, which left the colt very confused by her love-hate behavior.

I am calling the vet this week to schedule his gelding. He hasn’t shown any problem behaviors and is a really nice guy and super easy to get on with. He is a baby, of course and he is occasionally mouthy (getting better!). If I didn’t have five mares and no desire to keep two separate herds we might wait longer, but no “oopsies” here and while he is a nice colt I think he’s going to make an even better gelding.

Thank you all for your thoughts!

[JB]

He’s adorable! I’m glad to hear at least the Arab gelding has a new bitey face friend! :lol: