Trying to best allocate competition funds this fall, while looking forward to offering my TB stallion next spring.
As a mare owner, would you rather see more show results on the stallion’s record, or results from his yearling at FEH championships?
It isn’t entirely either/or…I’ll continue showing the stallion locally a few times this fall, and plan for the busy winter FL season. But I could compete him out of state, boosting his qualifications sooner (and possibly be more flexible during spring breeding season). He is 10, just moved up to preliminary level, and beginning his stud career. He was able to breed and compete simultaneously through March/April this year (literally covering a mare after coming home from dressage or xc at local events). He easily separates the two jobs.
His very nice yearling is qualified for FEH champs; I’ve never been, and would love to take advantage of this opportunity. I think it would be great exposure for both the yearling and his sire. However it’s a 14hr trip to either central or eastern site, and would probably use funds (& farm sitting) that I’d otherwise budget for the stallion’s career. And it’s “just” a yearling in hand…how much weight would this carry with mare owners? OTOH, proof is in the pudding, and perhaps breeders would rather see the offspring success than a few extra shows by the stallion.
As a mare owner I would say I look at both. What offspring have done is most important to me, but not as a yearling. Success Under saddle means a ton though. Until they have foals performing what the stallion has done and his breeding is what would make me give a young stallion a chance.
Given that he only has the one yearling I would compete him. But have enough photos and little videos of that foal so people can see what he throws. If the foal goes out and does well that’s icing on the cake. As the previous poster said, his get doing well would be great but they aren’t there yet so make sure he’s out there doing the job the get are supposed to do.
As a mare owner: Both matter to me. Competition track record (capability & soundness) factor in a lot. On the other hand, the offspring probably weight my decision more: how does the stallion cross on different types of mares? Are there particular pedigrees he’s exceptional with? How are the offspring under saddle (mentally, athletically, training wise)? As they get older and gain records of their own, what is their skill and soundness?
I understand you’re limited both by number and age of your stallion’s offspring, so with that in mind I would look more at campaigning the stallion. While I can appreciate the young horse classes, I think it can be hard to really put all your eggs in one basket with them - when the offspring are of riding/showing age it gets a little easier.
I would say competition of the stallion. As one can only say something about how a stallion breeds after quite a number of foals have been born (and competed under saddle).
I breed stock horses, but I’ve long, long said that what a stallion is capable of producing is far more important to me than what a stallion does himself.
APHA’s leading sire for 15 consecutive years did not have a huge show record. He won the yearling longe line at the world show and had six lifetime points in the western pleasure. At the time of his death in 2016, “he’s sired 956 APHA-registered foals—469 of which have established APHA show records and tallied more than 170 world championships and 162 reserve world championships, numbers that are likely to continue to increase.” (https://apha.com/news/zippos-sensation-laid-to-rest/)
On the other hand, I know of several sires who are leading performance horses of all time within their breed registries. The only foals they’ve produced that have done even half as well as them are out of prominent, fancy mares who couldn’t produce a dink if they were bred to a donkey.
You’ll absolutely get people interested in the stallion by what he does and his own show record, but if he cannot out produce himself then it’s pointless. I agree with the poster above that mentioned under saddle records - in hand classes are mostly luck of the draw anyway - a leading young horse trainer jokingly says his job is “showing squirrels on a leash”. :lol: I always tell stallion owners that I want to see what the stallion produces when crossed on an average mare and that will make my decision.
(FWIW, I owned my own stallion for a while as well and absolutely used the criteria above when I bought him.)
“Showing squirrels on a leash” LOL so true sometimes!
When I was shopping stallions for my mare 7yrs ago, quality of the offspring was my first priority. I actually bred her to a race TB, so I didn’t have a show record to go on (for him, or his kids). But I did get to see dozens of weanlings, yearlings, and 2yos (oldest crop) and they were very consistent with what I wanted. Unfortunately on my smaller scale-- and with taking 4+ yrs to get foals to real events-- by the time my stallion has proven offspring competing he will be mid-teens. In TBs, yearling sales are the big first statement in a stallion’s career, but performance record is ultimately what makes or breaks them.
For better or worse, my stallion doesn’t get much attention at shows…I don’t make a big deal in public about “STALLION! EVERYBODY BACK!” because he is extremely well-behaved, almost no one notices (and I’m a firm believer that if the world has to accommodate your stallion, he should be a gelding). I suppose I should promote him more at competitions, but he is green at the level and I’m honestly terrified of making a mistake on course and people holding that against him. The best exposure he’s had was at an ICP clinic, where a large group of spectators watched him jump nicely in a lesson, and stand around like a gentleman for an hour with a bunch of other horses.
At horse shows, the demographic is largely other competitors, who may have no interest in my stallion anyway. I wasn’t sure if I might reach a more breeder-oriented target audience campaigning the yearling at FEH championships, to generate interest in his sire.
If he is good at both jobs, there will be a natural progression from good competition horse to good breeding stallion as the number and age of his get increase. It isnt really either/or as both are necessary. Probably at first it will be his show record that catches the breeders eye.
And IMO a TB stallion with a race record has been tested - probably more thoroughly than in a horse show arena. Courage, stamina, trainability, sheer toughness and hardiness.
In this case, I’d look more at the competition record of the stallion, and I’d be interested to see conformation photos and videos (movement; once they’re free jumping, free jumping) of his offspring until they’re under saddle. Once the stallion has offspring under saddle, I care a lot more about their record, but I’m not going to get too excited about a production record based on anything they can do on the line, and I can make my own assessment if I like what he produces based on some photos and videos.
Been there. Done that and have the TShirt :). Feel free to hit me up with questions. I don’t come on COTH very much anymore but you can call/text me (or come over and we can go to dinner to talk about the fun of standing eventing stallions lol :).
To over simplify things I think it’s a fine art and you can rely on with a stallion or his kids successes but to be really successful I think breeders want to see both ;).
I think it is a little bit of both, especially for breeders. For sport-horse prospects I would not underestimate the power of having competing offspring and/or a professional willing to testify for them, in very simple terms… That’s often a big way a stallion gets marketed: someone sees a pro with a horse they really like, and it’s not for sale – next best thing is to find a sibling.
That being said I do think a performance record is very important when you have a horse that is an “unknown” quantity – in the fact he does not come from a well-known family or sire/dam line, and has not produced much (yet).
Standing a TB is especially hard. You have my appreciation, and I am grateful we have Saketini. He is something special and we’re lucky that people are willing to do this “labor of love” so that the rest of us have nice riding horses. :yes:
As a stallion owner, I’ll say what I find when marketing our boy.
If you can swing showing your stallion—the logistics of it, the expense, etc.—do it until you can’t. Get QUALITY video of him at every chance you can get. People will ask for it, even when they have multitudes of kids winning at the job they’re breeding for. This is the one thing I wish I had more of. People weren’t videoing stuff when our boy showed, and then we had to make the decision to focus on his kids for financial and logistical reasons (not enough grooms to manage a stallion, Greens, etc.). So I have some Dressage video, but not showing, really blurry hunter video (ugh) and stuff from his stallion test. He’s still in work, but at 17 it doesn’t make sense to put him in the show ring just for video (we do get some schooling stuff, but for MO’s it’s just not the same).
But also show the kids. Buy quality mares or offer extreme stud fee discounts depending on how his foals are able to be registered. It’ll take awhile to get them to a point where they will help your stallion, because people will want to know how they are to ride and train. A yearling will only get him so far, even if it wins everything.
Agree with all that has been said but having a more ‘atypical’ breed that attracts adult amateurs of a few persuasions I did find having video of both myself and my children (then teenagers) handling the youngstock before we had any going under saddle also helped with selling some of the offspring AND breedings. Many were impressed with how my stallion stamped his get and how level headed they consistently seemed to be regardless of mare.
Now having said that all of my mares had been proven under saddle and shown, easy to handle and could be ridden by just about anyone; so, I agree that it’s important to put as much effort into selecting the right mares to market your stallion. I turned down more than one request to breed to a mare that I felt would not put a good disposition on her offspring. I did not want it coming back as implicating my stallion as if it were due to what could have been perceived as his faulty genetics.
I think most of us realize that it’s a long haul to market a stallion and most don’t really start seeing the benefits until a stallion not only has been out there in front of people in competition (with a decent record of his own) but also his offspring which typically means a stallion isn’t getting the majority of his bookings until he’s well into his prime. The nuances and challenges managing a competing stallion along with breedings probably requires a thread of its own.
My young stallion has 8 offspring qualified for FEH Championships on both coasts and half with scores of 80% or percent or better. We were very fortunate to have an active group of owners and breeders to help make this happen. FEH is a program I actually believe in and we have actively participated since it first came out to the West Coast. We have also done several YEH championships. I would most definitely take your yearling to FEH as the judging and feedback you will receive will be most informative (and far more consistent across the board than you will find at the qualifiers).
I wouldn’t say that competing the offspring in hand has contributed much to the number of mares he bred this year–but i would say that it has contributed to the quality of the mares he has bred. I had several breeders who had seen the offspring at Qualifiers choose our stallion this season. 2 of those breeders happen to be 5 star competitors. These are the riders/breeders i really want to see using my stallion.
