Stallion options for eventing mare (Fisherman's Friend/Daktylus)

[G3myst3ry]

I am after some breeding advice, I have a lovely hannoverian mare by Fisherman’s Friend out of a Daktylus/Aloe xx mare (breeding https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/2679942/remi-fancy-dancer). She is around 17hh, very thoroughbredy in type, she has three good paces and an excellent jump (have had both high level eventers and show jumpers want her). Due to covid and personal circumstances she’s a little behind where we thought we would be but is getting ready to step up to 2*, has show jumped to 1.20 and shown plenty of scope to go higher. On the flat she scores very well, is usually in the top 5 after the dressage with a very good walk and canter, if you were fussy you’d maybe like a little more elevation in her paces but for eventing she has plenty of movement. She’s very trainable, wants to please and loves to jump, rarely has a rail show jumping but is not the bravest horse xcountry.
We have had one foal (ET) from her by Contendro i, he had an exceptional temperament, very similar in type to his mum just with better hocks/pastern angles and a little heavier (he was a colt till 2 and a half). I started him as a 3yo and within 2 weeks of being under saddle he could’ve gone and done a dressage test! Just a really lovely, genuine horse. Sadly we lost him to toxic colitis last year so hadn’t had a chance to jump him more then over some little fences when he was started.
Very long story short, I’m stuck on what to use this time around. The main things I am looking to improve is her hind end, specifically hocks as she’s a little straight, she’s upright in her pasterns so need a stallion known to pass on good limb conformation. While she herself isn’t a heavy horse, her sire could throw bigger/heavier types so want to avoid anything known to throw that. Personally I like hotter horses and the mare has an excellent temperament so I’m happy to use something that can throw spicier types. The main thing I would like is something known to throw brave/bolder babies as the intention is the event. If you were being picky, she could use a slightly stronger top line and a slight more elegant neck but again, if I got a carbon copy of her I’d be over the moon!
My current thoughts are:

1. Go back to Contendro i, as we lost the last one at 3 and a half, he may have refined a little more as he grew. The stallion is so well known and produces such lovely types I think it could be a safe bet. He improved the mares limbs and hind end, but the gelding had her neck and was a little heavier.
2. Grafenstolz, I love a lot of what he’s producing, he seems to throw lovely necks and good limbs. A lot seem like very good, elastic movers but have seen the odd one that has more ‘daisy cutter’ movement but that could be the dam. From all accounts they’re brave and want to do the job, my only question is given she has the potential to throw a little heavier, would he suit as I have read the odd thing that he needs a mare with plenty of blood?
3. Upsilon, I adored this stallion when he was competing and the babies I have seen look super. He already has a few upper level show jumpers and eventers coming through. I think he would compliment her well in terms of conformation. The only issue is, being dead there are limited offspring so don’t have a huge amount to go off and have heard mixed things about his frozen semen? There is a son standing at future sport horses who on paper would be excellent, I’m just a little concerned he may be too heavy.
4. I have semen for Ramiro B, I really like what he produces and from what I’ve heard he throws bold horses with great attitudes. I have sort of discounted him for her though as I feel he may be too heavy/produce too heavy as he does not have a huge amount of blood?
5. Diarado, he’s producing some really nice eventers, I think he would suit her in terms of type and she’s big which ticks that box for him. Plenty on the ground and would be commercial if we had to sell. Main issue is the cost and its not sold with a live foal (there are a number offered here via frozen with a LFG) but would love to use him.
   We are in Australia so the stallion needs to be available via frozen or in the country.
   And sorry for the massive post!! Have added some photos of the mare, can add some of her foal as well.

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[cristalle]

She’s lovely, OP.
My first thought would be your option #1, Contendro. Go with what you know has worked. It sounds like the foal you had was wonderful - so sorry for your loss of him.

[beowulf]

Lovely mare, looks just like my type. I’m sorry for the loss of your colt.

I agree, if you liked that cross repeat it. Contendro is more than proven in his own right.

The stallions you mentioned are all very different in type and what they pass on. Just reading the context for what “needs” improvement in your mare, I would have suggested a Trakehner to keep the blood up and improve boldness. Are Tatendrang or Herzensdieb available to you in AUS?

[Amberley]

If you loved the Contendro foal I’d rebreed.

She actually looks like she could be a Grafenstolz offspring herself, that would be my second choice to improve but keep the basic type. I do think the baby is going to be enormous if you go that way.

[G3myst3ry]

Thank you, she’s a lovely girl and I’m very lucky to have her!

I think that’s part of my problem, they’re all very different and would all be bringing different things to the table. My top choice is to go back to Contendro but there are so many options and I enjoy the research side of choosing a stallion. We will likely have a few more with her over the next few years so starting to compile a list.

I can’t find semen for either of those stallions unfortunately. We are a bit limited over here, it’s often just the bigger name/more popular sires who are available. Would you consider Graf an option?

[G3myst3ry]

When you say you’d be concerned the foal would be enormous, as in height or type? I hadn’t heard reports of him making massive foals?

[G3myst3ry]

For type, this is the Contednro i boy. Photos are 3yo ish so bit gawky still and not the best photos!! received_1080274079760692|690x492

[Amberley]

I have heard that he can throw massive foals. But ask the owners. It may be with certain mates etc.

[sixpoundfarm]

Nice mare! I always liked Fisherman’s Friend! Semen quality for both Upsilon and Ramiro B are both questionable, just so you know.
If you can get Graf, can you get others from TSC? I really, really like Cormint to add type, keep blood and jump. He does not IME take away movement either.
What others can you get frozen from?

[beowulf]

In terms of offspring performance in eventing, Grafenstolz is very proven. Not sure he would improve pastern or movement, and you may get larger, but he is a great stallion. He would improve the neck and back.

[G3myst3ry]

I think we can get most things from TSC, I also really like Le Prince de Bois and have seriously considered him but he is less proven? Not sure if anyone has experience with his offspring? I also like Flexible but haven’t seen much by him? He’d be a consideration too as looks unlikely to add size… I can also get semen for Herald iii,he’s another one I like and the bonus of Heraldik blood but again hasn’t had loads that I’ve seen? I would consider him in this instance as I think he would produce something quite modern?
Are there any thoughts on Diarado? He’s one of my favourites but the main downside is the price!

[SusanO]

If you like Diarado and maybe want to add some Heraldik xx - have you looked at the Holsteiner stallion Duplexx? Somebody on another thread had bred to him and I looked him up because I did not know much about him. Stunning horse! Stunning jump! And is out there eventing. However I do not know about his frozen availability, especially in Australia.

[G3myst3ry]

Duplexx is lovely, there’s been a few foals over here by him last season. Given the expense of frozen and embryo transfer I would prefer to go with something more proven. But he’d be on my list in the future!
I was looking at Quintender, adds the Contender line from the dam and he looks like he doesn’t add substance. Not sure if any opinions on him?
I do really like Flexible and sounds like it could be an interesting option but would have to confirm if I can get semen. Others would be Le Prince de Bois or Herald iii but there doesn’t seem to be huge amounts of info on progeny (being in aus and limited access to European studbooks and such makes it a bit tricky to research progeny bar what’s easily accessible).
Chilli Morning would also be an option however I’m assuming if there is any semen left it won’t be for sale? Which would leave a clone which I’m 50/50 on or a son. There’s one standing over here but is largely unproven and hasn’t been out yet so I will wait a while longer before considering him.

[Willesdon]

Future Sport Horses have worked with several Australian breeders to achieve good outcomes. It might be worth having a phone call to discuss some options with them. Future Guilty Pleasure catches my eye every time I see him running. Upsilon was a beautiful horse, a complete athlete and so elegant. Future Hepsilon has amazing breeding though I haven’t seen him in the flesh yet.

[sixpoundfarm]

@G3myst3ry

I was looking at Quintender, adds the Contender line from the dam and he looks like he doesn’t add substance. Not sure if any opinions on him?

Terrible frozen semen, at least in the US.

[Amberley]

Your mare is only 40% blood and a lot of the stallions suggested here, while absolutely amazing, are 50%-ish. I think if you want an upper level event horse, especially one that can handle heat and long formats, and you want boldness, then you need to looking to up the blood to 60-80% in the resulting foal imho. The UL horses that don’t have that TB blood typically have unknown light horse breeding somewhere, genes from an non-TB/arab light horse breed or genetically they are more blood than expected due to inheritance. Remember it’s only a rough estimate off pedigree: this article gets into it a bit more: https://eventingnation.com/blood-percentage-weve-been-doing-it-wrong/

If you want more of an all around horse then staying 40/50% makes more sense to me.

[G3myst3ry]

In an ideal world I’d love to use a thoroughbred or close to full thoroughbred over her but sadly we’re quite limited with options here. I prefer hotter horses and have largely grown up riding thoroughbreds so that would be an ideal option for her I’m just struggling to find something to suit.
Herald 3 is around 70% blood so could be an option.
In terms of thoroughbreds we have access to, anything available chilled/fresh is sadly dead now and it’s nearly impossible to use something standing as a racing sire. For frozen options in the country I can get -
Lauries Crusader (not enough jump)
Likoto (I don’t know much about progeny)
Sea Lion (proven but I don’t love his movement from videos I’ve seen and the nicest foals appear to be out of irish mares)
Gwahir Zodiac (lovely horse and evented successfully but limited progeny and I don’t know what the frozen is like)
Future prophecy (he would be at the top of my list, the only question mark is that he’s still young and progeny aren’t out competing much yet)
Jaguar mail (not full but close, semen is atrocious and I’ve been advised not to bother trying).
Not sure of any others I may have missed? I would be very interested to use future prophecy, I’m just hesitant as he isn’t proven yet.
Sorry I know these options are all over the place! My experience is breeding with thoroughbred mares so this girl is a bit different. Given the cost of embryo transfer I want to make the right/best informed decision for her (which may be another contendro i).

[Willesdon]

Future Prophecy is proving to be so popular he is being collected for an extra two months, according a recent FB post from the stud.

Also look at stallion AI Services (www.stallonai.com) for an entire smogabord of stallions. They ship to Australia.