A friend is looking for a “dressage-y” warmblood stallion with the following criteria:
Mare is Hanoverian (old G line) / TB. She needs some “modernizing” - leggier, prettier, etc., but is otherwise quite nice. Stallion must be approved AHS or OHBS/GOV. It is for a “keeper” foal for an amateur rider.
Your thoughts?
Lotus T is such a stallion :). His offspring are GOV eligible, a few years back his son, Luft Jordan was a top scoring foal at the GOV inspections. Besides all the other points, he produces horses with literally big hearts. During pre-purchase exams of several of his offspring, the vets pointed out that they have exceptionally big hearts. It must be coming down from his mother’s side, since two of his half-siblings were characterized with such a trait.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6781393]
So a friend is looking for a “dressage-y” warmblood stallion with the following criteria:
Mare is Hanoverian (old G line) / TB. She needs some “modernizing” - leggier, prettier, etc. Stallion must be approved AHS or OHBS/GOV. It is for a “keeper” foal for an amateur rider.
Your thoughts?[/QUOTE]
“My thoughts” ? Get another mare.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6781520]
“My thoughts” ? Get another mare.[/QUOTE]
Really, Reece? You haven’t seen the mare. You don’t know anything about her except what I said above, so what makes you think she isn’t worthy of being bred? She has taken her amateur owner to 4th Level and they are knocking on the door of PSG. Owner has taken a new job and will not have time to train enough to compete the mare this year. She wants a foal for the future. Is that wrong?
[QUOTE=szipi;6781411]
Lotus T is such a stallion :). During pre-purchase exams of several of his offspring, the vets pointed out that they have exceptionally big hearts. It must be coming down from his mother’s side, since two of his half-siblings were characterized with such a trait.[/QUOTE]
Ah, sorry, should clarify. By “big heart”, the mare owner means “big-hearted” - as in generous, willing, kind, etc. Mare is lovely in temperament and willingness - she is easy to get along with and tries her heart out. The owner wants a stallion that also has those traits.
Have you looked at Gatsby? Yes, he’s G-line, but depending on how far back they merge, he might do nicely. He crosses very well with TB mares, and if your mare is 1/2 (or more) TB, that might work well.
I don’t know that I’d call his eye “big”, but he is big-hearted, his kids are very ammy-friends, I wouldn’t say he has or puts on “big feet”, but he does put on GOOD feet.
Fresh or frozen semen?
It’s my opinion that expectations need to be managed here. I’m not saying that your friend should not breed her mare, but that she cannot accomplish everything on her laundry list in one generation. My suggestion is to prioritize…pick three things off that bullet list and start again.
One stallion that interests me is Liberty. But I have not found a conformation photo for him, and I have not seen any foals. Because he was a competition stallion until very recently, that is probably because he has very few foals on the ground. And there’s that “gray” thing.
Describes Boleem perfectly.
One other point I’d like to make. It sounds like your friend is breeding for herself, not to sell. Breeding for a personal mount is a very freeing thing. You don’t have to consider whether the stallion is a foalmaker, or make precocity of offspring a primary concern. Unless your short-term goal is the YH classes, you can consider a lesser-used stallion, perhaps one whose offspring are a little slower to mature.
Generally speaking, it is understood by most breeders that stallions tend to physically improve the head the most, as far as the other qualities, I would want a good balanced conformation for your discipline, and of course the big-heartedness would be a very big thing to me and really number one on the list. I am glad that you corrected the impression that physical size of the heart. (don’t know how those vets knew that without a post-mortem!), I was a bit puzzled knowing how strange thoughts on breeding are these days! Of course you want a long living, sound line in general which would obviate all of the other piecemeal items on the list imho.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6781574]
Really, Reece? You haven’t seen the mare. You don’t know anything about her except what I said above, so what makes you think she isn’t worthy of being bred? She has taken her amateur owner to 4th Level and they are knocking on the door of PSG. Owner has taken a new job and will not have time to train enough to compete the mare this year. She wants a foal for the future. Is that wrong?[/QUOTE].
I don’t need to see the mare seeing as you listed ELEVEN things to improve on her. So…yes , really.
I don’t breed mares that need this much fixin.
Rubignon was my first thought!
Thanks for the input.
And I see I need to again clarify. The mare is not necessarily lacking in the traits I posted above. The owner just wants to make sure the stallion possesses those traits. For instance, she doesn’t want to breed her mare with very correct conformation (albeit a little “old fashioned” in type), and with a nicely carrying hindleg to a stallion that is NOT correct or that doesn’t have a strong hindleg.
Wow, what a rush to judgement. Gotta love COTH sometimes.
I see a list of eight criteria desired in the stallion, and a hope to “modernize - leggier, prettier” the mare.
Looking for a stallion with correct conformation doesn’t necessarily mean the mare has bad conformation, and looking for a stallion with an uphill build doesn’t necessarily mean the mare is downhill. I’d hazard a guess that MOST breeders are looking for stallions with correct conformation, uphill build, good temperament, etc.
(I guess I was typing while you were posting, DY. Great minds think alike?)
Another detail to consider as your friend short lists stallion candidates might be to see which have produced offspring which are succeeding with ammies.
[QUOTE=pinecone;6781750]
Wow, what a rush to judgement. Gotta love COTH sometimes.
I see a list of eight criteria desired in the stallion, and a hope to “modernize - leggier, prettier” the mare.
Looking for a stallion with correct conformation doesn’t necessarily mean the mare has bad conformation, and looking for a stallion with an uphill build doesn’t necessarily mean the mare is downhill. I’d hazard a guess that MOST breeders are looking for stallions with correct conformation, uphill build, good temperament, etc.[/QUOTE]
Right, but since genetics is such a profoundly complicated business, and very non-linear, as in, you cannot “predict” that a good footed, nice headed stallion is going to improve those qualities if they are lacking in the mare, (not saying that they are), and, if this amateur is serious and wants to reproduce some fine qualities in the mare, the best of it will be her temperament, and of course her good bone (generally speaking of course). I would never breed a mare of mine to a bad tempered or difficult stallion no matter how “big moving” etc. that stallion may be. I also do not assume that the mare is in any sense “common” or not of a selectable type for breeding. But, since these are very difficult times, this amateur should be wide eyed about what could happen if the breeding and the foaling all go okay, and you get an inferior type. That can and does happen with the best to the best.
To make Reece happy, I am going to edit my original post. And to clarify again, there isn’t a heck of a lot on this mare that needs to be fixed - she “ideally” could be a bit leggier, a bit lighter in substance, and her head a bit “prettier” (she has a long, bony face). but overall, she is a nice girl. Owner would be happy with a foal just like her. Her list just happened to include some traits she wants in the stallion - many of which the mare already possesses. I thought the “big eyes, big feet, big heart” criteria was interesting - which is why I posted here.
As for why the owner listed them -
Big eyes - she likes a horse with a big, soft eye
Big feet - she doesn’t like sporthorses with smallish feet (soundness concerns)
Big heart - she loves a horse that is kind, willing, and generous
I can bypass some of this conversation with a suggestion or two.Dacaprio has given large eyes, a pretty head, nice neck, correct legs and friendly personality. Mine aren’t under saddle yet, but like to please and are smart. I love their gaits as well. Instead of more TB blood, the Trakhener worked perfectly with my mares.
Baroncelli is another, but is frozen semen. Anglo Arab can add some refinement and elegance.
Peg
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6781825]
To make Reece happy, I am going to edit my original post. And to clarify again, there isn’t a heck of a lot on this mare that needs to be fixed - she “ideally” could be a bit leggier, a bit lighter in substance, and her head a bit “prettier” (she has a long, bony face). but overall, she is a nice girl. Owner would be happy with a foal just like her. Her list just happened to include some traits she wants in the stallion - many of which the mare already possesses. I thought the “big eyes, big feet, big heart” criteria was interesting - which is why I posted here.
As for why the owner listed them -
Big eyes - she likes a horse with a big, soft eye
Big feet - she doesn’t like sporthorses with smallish feet (soundness concerns)
Big heart - she loves a horse that is kind, willing, and generous[/QUOTE]
Donarweiss is producing very modern babies. He has gone to GP and is now being ridden by a young rider which to me speaks for his temperment. I have a lovely modern colt last year with a very sweet temperment.
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