"Stallions don't belong at horse shows"

[TheresanAppfurthat]

Oh my is this topic ever familiar territory.

Showing my Crabbet-bred stallion (read: perfectly trained, perfectly well mannered and ALWAYS an angel) at open shows - same remarks. Hunting him (capped) (yes, some of of the Crabbet-bred Arabians had more jump than the Tbs against whom we often competed) with a recognized hunt, where no one noticed until standing behind him while we were trailer loading to return home - same remarks. Another stallion, many years later - identical except for size to a 2-year-old GELDING of mine; the boarding barn where I was while my home barn was being upgraded with new plumbing and wiring - self-described “trainer” took my 2-year-old GELDING out of his stall without my permission or foreknowledge and, as related by other boarders to me in frantic phone calls, started removing hair and flesh with a whip screaming all the while that “stalions need to be taught lessons.” I even got yelled at by a prospective barn helper who was not yet a legal adult when I had to inform her that my liability insurance prohibited barn help who was underage BECAUSE I HAD A STALLION. She was just sure that was because ALL STALLIONS ARE KILLERS and she was bent on making sure I knew how “stupid” I was for having a stallion on the premises. I cannot tell you how very amused and quite bored I was at being taken to task by a 17 year old who had lied about her age to get the interview and had to fess up when asked for ID.

I believe we have Hollywood to thank for this mess.

[ayrabz]

Not a stallion owner. Have had to handle one at a schooling show that he should not have been at in my opinion, nor in my ignorant hands. but it went ok. Here’s my take on it. ANY clinic, or show on entries should claim if stallions are permitted and may be showing along side. Should also indicate what classes they are allowed to enter. That done? no one should have a thing to say. I would not want my youngster or a mare of mine in such a class unknowing. But I DO appreciate a stallion with a performance record over one that has none. So I"m all for it, just disclosed and understood for entries.

[pluvinel]

@TheresanAppfurthat

Oh my is this topic ever familiar territory.

…

I believe we have Hollywood to thank for this mess.

My opinion is that as more and more people are removed from farm life, the belief horses are just overgrown 1000 poodles instead of livestock that have the potential to injure and kill creates unrealistic expectations.

A well-behaved stallion usually has been well handled since youth. And this includes administering discipline and corrections appropriately. Unfortunately, some people can’t see correcting their little nookums.

[Fillabeana]

I knew a fellow years ago that bred and rode cutting horses, had the big futurity winner in the 80s or some such.

Back then, you hauled your really well bred, high performing mare halfway across the country to get her bred to the top cutting horse stallions…he had a few mares, including the mother of the futurity winner.

So every year, he would have a colt or two that was seriously a stallion prospect. He was quite capable of handling them well, and did so, but as soon as any really outstanding colt started acting silly or stallionish, he would geld them.

There was one well bred one that never acted silly, and thus kept his gonads. I rode him for my friend in the warmup ring at a cutting show. Everybody was circling at a lope, he never put a hoof out of place. He flicked an ear in annoyance…that was the sum total of his response…when someone misjudged and loped by so close my stirrup got whacked by their stirrup. I later bred my husband’s mare to that stallion and got a baby with the best disposition ever, she was the unicorn that was sensitive and forward but also quiet, tolerant and forgiving.

But yes, too many people think of their creatures as FurBabies rather than pets or livestock.

[Texarkana]

@TheresanAppfurthat

Oh my is this topic ever familiar territory.

Showing my Crabbet-bred stallion (read: perfectly trained, perfectly well mannered and ALWAYS an angel) at open shows - same remarks. Hunting him (capped) (yes, some of of the Crabbet-bred Arabians had more jump than the Tbs against whom we often competed) with a recognized hunt, where no one noticed until standing behind him while we were trailer loading to return home - same remarks. Another stallion, many years later - identical except for size to a 2-year-old GELDING of mine; the boarding barn where I was while my home barn was being upgraded with new plumbing and wiring - self-described “trainer” took my 2-year-old GELDING out of his stall without my permission or foreknowledge and, as related by other boarders to me in frantic phone calls, started removing hair and flesh with a whip screaming all the while that “stalions need to be taught lessons.” I even got yelled at by a prospective barn helper who was not yet a legal adult when I had to inform her that my liability insurance prohibited barn help who was underage BECAUSE I HAD A STALLION. She was just sure that was because ALL STALLIONS ARE KILLERS and she was bent on making sure I knew how “stupid” I was for having a stallion on the premises. I cannot tell you how very amused and quite bored I was at being taken to task by a 17 year old who had lied about her age to get the interview and had to fess up when asked for ID.

I believe we have Hollywood to thank for this mess.

I don’t blame it on Hollywood. I blame it on how sometime in the second half of the 20th century, somebody decided to start preaching that stallions need special/different handling that the mere mortal horse enthusiast is incapable of delivering. I remember growing up reading horse books and pony club manuals with statements like, “stallions are extremely dangerous and can only by handled by experienced stallion handlers.” Had I not grown up on an Arabian farm where stallions were the norm, I may have believed it.

It’s tough because some do require a heightened awareness that someone who is strictly a hobby rider may not possess (as you watch them get pushed around by their placid schoolie). I just wish there was a way to deter the truly novice handler without scaring half the western world. What is worse than irrational fear is when experienced horse people get their first colt and ruin him with harsh handling and isolation, and think nothing of his bad behavior because that’s how they believe stallions are supposed to act.

[Texarkana]

@TheresanAppfurthat

Oh my is this topic ever familiar territory.

Showing my Crabbet-bred stallion (read: perfectly trained, perfectly well mannered and ALWAYS an angel) at open shows - same remarks. Hunting him (capped) (yes, some of of the Crabbet-bred Arabians had more jump than the Tbs against whom we often competed) with a recognized hunt, where no one noticed until standing behind him while we were trailer loading to return home - same remarks. Another stallion, many years later - identical except for size to a 2-year-old GELDING of mine; the boarding barn where I was while my home barn was being upgraded with new plumbing and wiring - self-described “trainer” took my 2-year-old GELDING out of his stall without my permission or foreknowledge and, as related by other boarders to me in frantic phone calls, started removing hair and flesh with a whip screaming all the while that “stalions need to be taught lessons.” I even got yelled at by a prospective barn helper who was not yet a legal adult when I had to inform her that my liability insurance prohibited barn help who was underage BECAUSE I HAD A STALLION. She was just sure that was because ALL STALLIONS ARE KILLERS and she was bent on making sure I knew how “stupid” I was for having a stallion on the premises. I cannot tell you how very amused and quite bored I was at being taken to task by a 17 year old who had lied about her age to get the interview and had to fess up when asked for ID.

I believe we have Hollywood to thank for this mess.

I don’t blame it on Hollywood. I blame it on how sometime in the second half of the 20th century, somebody decided to start preaching that stallions need special/different handling that the mere mortal horse enthusiast is incapable of delivering. I remember growing up reading horse books and pony club manuals with statements like, “stallions are extremely dangerous and can only by handled by experienced stallion handlers.” Had I not grown up on an Arabian farm where stallions were the norm, I may have believed it.

It’s tough because some do require a heightened awareness that someone who is strictly a hobby rider may not possess (as you watch them get pushed around by their placid schoolie). I just wish there was a way to deter the truly novice handler without scaring half the western world. What is worse than irrational fear is when experienced horse people get their first colt and ruin him with harsh handling and isolation, and think nothing of his bad behavior because that’s how they believe stallions are supposed to act.

[xeroxchick]

I think we are in a weird place as far as almost all male horses we know are gelded. That being said, I have ridden stallions who are well behaved and fine. I have hunted with stallions who are well behaved and fine. But! Someone last year took their stallion to an opening hunt and that stallion broke away and mounted horses tied to trailers and it was a nightmare. Big problem. And then posted to Facebook about how great he did. Nope. Traumatized a horse I know. It’s all about the handlers, right?

[My_Two_Cents]

Years ago our neighbor would ride his stallion on trail rides. Most never knew that as the stud never made a peep when being ridden. One day at the end of a ride, a guy wanted to know when he could come over to have a look at the neighbors stud. “Umm, why don’t you just walk over to the trailer and look at him now” I believe they had a breeding deal before the stallion was loaded on the trailer to head home.

However, handling stallions is not for everyone. They need to be handled by capable people. I have seen some people that had no business with responsibility.

[skykingismybaby1]

A few years ago I had the chance to visit a leading stud farm in Italy. They had 12 top line stallions that bred internationally, two were Hambletonian winners. These stallions were syndicated for millions of dollars. The stallion barn was about a half mile from the breeding shed. The grooms got the stallions from the barn on bicycles!!! I watched those stallions be taken to the breeding shed and they never put a foot wrong the whole way.

[16_Hands]

My husband had/has a friend that owned a nice, well bred stallion that was just a peach. His little girl (about 4) would be riding him around bareback with a halter when it came time for him to cover a mare. The owner put the stud chain on and he was all business doing his business. Afterwards, he put the halter back on and the little girl hopped on and continued riding him around. Crazy stallion that one for sure.

[cardinale]

Perhaps the handlers causing disasters are mainly self taught or taught badly. It seems that stallion handling is a learned skill which is acquired from working long term with an experienced, competent stallion handler in a variety of situations. Those opportunities are probably not widely available.

[Mersidoats]

Sister-in-law was a pony jumper kid till high school and we were talking horses at dinner one night. I was talking about my experience working at a big performance barn and I mentioned that there was a stallion barn there. I was about to start talking about how I learned so much about managing stallions and how to keep them happy and sane while I was there - because they were all happy and sane horses that got turnout and socialization.

She gasped and interrupted with the statement that all stallions were crazy. I asked her why she thought that, and how many stallions she had ever handled or known in her lifetime.

Crickets.
shrug

[McGurk]

I have handled multiple stallions, both for riding and breeding, that were perfect gentleman, and some that deserve the bad reputation. In one case, the same breeding farm had a perfect gentleman and a juvenile deliquent. I believe the problem there was that the owner thought the deliquent was too pretty and too well bred to cut.

Also, I think the “all stallions are crazy and barely managable” BS is self-reinforcing. If you believe that, you treat stallions differently and overlook a lot of bad behavior. If you expect a stallion to have good ground manners, be polite and mannerly, respect human personal space, and keep their brain in their heads except in the breeding shed when their brain can travel south briefly, they act just like a mannerly gelding or mare.

I’m trying to remember all the great jumper stallions who often did the hunters as warm ups - Good Twist, Gem Twist, Abdullah, Starman - I’m sure there are lots of others.

[bugsynskeeter]

People who are scared of stallions have no business being around them. I see more issues with people who think it will be like “The Black Stallion” and they can be friends with their stallion with just a glance.

A stallion that acts like anything other than a gelding shouldn’t be a stallion.

[exvet]

@cardinale

Perhaps the handlers causing disasters are mainly self taught or taught badly. It seems that stallion handling is a learned skill which is acquired from working long term with an experienced, competent stallion handler in a variety of situations. Those opportunities are probably not widely available.

So much of this is true and sadly so. I grew up on a farm - dairy and horses (breeding). We learned early on what the dangers were and how to not only behave around all animals but also how to manage them. It was matter of fact, on the job training called growing up and being part of the family with expected age appropriate duties/chores. Consistency, fairness and always thinking ahead so that you stay safe and give everyone the best chance for success (in other words don’t put an animal in a bad situation) were the keys to survival - your own and the animal’s. First-calf heifers no matter how good their genetics and milk production, if they kicked at the milker while being milked (ie, continued to do so after their first or second milking) were culled and sold to slaughter, end of story. Stallions that were ill-tempered were gelded and if not improved with their disposition in a reasonable time-frame were sold. RESPONSIBLE breeders cull their live stock. RESPONSIBLE stallion owners make sure they are well trained, well handled and do their best not to let their stallion be put in a situation that can get out of control. This, however, doesn’t negate third party responsibility or at least their obligation to exercise common sense when in the same location as a stallion or breeding animal and that includes mares, mares with foals etc. Unfortunately it’s that part of the human genome that seems extinct these days, not just the reduced opportunities to learn stallion handling skills.

[pluvinel]

@exvet

So much of this is true and sadly so. I grew up on a farm - dairy and horses (breeding). We learned early on what the dangers were and how to not only behave around all animals but also how to manage them. It was matter of fact, on the job training called growing up and being part of the family with expected age appropriate duties/chores. Consistency, fairness and always thinking ahead so that you stay safe and give everyone the best chance for success (in other words don’t put an animal in a bad situation) were the keys to survival - your own and the animal’s. …

RESPONSIBLE stallion owners make sure they are well trained, well handled and do their best not to let their stallion be put in a situation that can get out of control. T

his, however, doesn’t negate third party responsibility or at least their obligation to exercise common sense when in the same location as a stallion or breeding animal and that includes mares, mares with foals etc. Unfortunately it’s that part of the human genome that seems extinct these days, not just the reduced opportunities to learn stallion handling skills.

THIS^^^^

You don’t need to grow up on a working farm to learn to handle stallions…but you definitely need to go thru the apprenticeship from good stallion handlers. I had the opportunity to learn from some of the best. That apprenticeship establishes what is expected of the human.

As far as third-party responsibility…YUP.

I was at a George Williams clinic. It was held in a large indoor with auditor seating along the short end and the entry to the indoor was at the corner of the short side, to the right of where auditors were seated. I was on my horse, standing about 15 feet from the auditor section, in a corner of the indoor waiting for the rider before me to finish. This rider was a “name” (judge that everyone would know) riding a mare in raging heat. That mare took the rider to my horse…and kept getting closer and closer as we kept backing up into the corner. Fortunately the lesson ended. My horse never put a foot wrong.

As my mentors made clear to me, you need to be able to control YOUR horse because other people may not have control over theirs.

[2tempe]

i have owned and shown a stallion for the last 5+ years. He is saintly but I never forget that he is intact. Last winter at a show down here in Fla, he was tied in the wash rack. Normally stands quite still but the water was chilly and he took ONE step back. And poof, the halter broke. :eek: My absolute worst mightmare! In the end I was very lucky. He took advantage of his freedom to go on a tour, up and down barn aisles around a couple of fields, mostly trotting, stopping for a bite of grass or two, and never even looked at the other horses:confused: Finally came back towards four of us who were hoping to aim him into a round pen; he stopped, reared and stood like a statue while we rigged up his halter then strolled back to his stall like nothing had happened. I lost 5 yrs off my life,lol. And never again a breakaway halter…

[cripplecreekfrm]

I had a paint pony stallion that was a complete saint. A trainer that I know was putting on a swim clinic and I said to my friend “I really want to take Ace to this” She wanted to take her mare. I called the person putting on the clinic and made sure that it was okay to bring him and was told as long as he was well behaved then there were no issues but that he was not going to broadcast to the other people riding that he was a stallion. Well my friend and I get there and he is his normal self. Standing quietly tied to the trailer while my friend’s TB mare was a total nut job (she had come in season that morning and was seriously flirting with my guy having ridden beside him the whole way. My guy swam and we had a blast! even leading a couple of the other horses into the water. There were a couple women that had chickened out on the clinic but were there watching while my guy stood napping with his girlfriend leaning on him just hanging out while I was on him. They started pointing and whispering. At this time my friend leans over and says " I think the just noticed that he is a stallion." Sure enough they approached like they were approaching a fire breathing dragon and asked if he was a stallion. I said yes then they were like “that is a mare ans she is in season and he doesn’t care! He must have never been bred.” I proceeded to show them pictures on my phone of his first foal crop that had been born that spring.

If you don’t get them out and train them then they never learn how to be good citizens. I don’t want to breed to something that isn’t a good citizen so I have no issues with having stallions out as long as their handlers are actually handling them properly.

[AlexxSays]

I have a friend with two young, green TBs. One was a stallion (he was later gelded because she had no plans to ever breed him) and a gelding. No one ever believed her when she explained that the chestnut was the stallion and the bay was the gelding. The stallion, despite being four, was the quietest, chillest, best behaved, least spooky horse I have ever met. He just puttered along doing whatever she asked whenever she asked not giving any other horses, mares or geldings another glance.

Meanwhile, the gelding was a rescue and could be a little wild and studdy- she really worked with him and he’s a solid citizen now but at the start everyone always assume he was her stallion since he was the wild one!

[oldernewbie]

Arab people would laugh at the idea that stallions don’t belong at a horse show. They are everywhere at shows. Arabs are also the only breed, I believe, that allows junior exhibitors to show stallions. Yah, there might be a crazy one here or there, but the vast majority are good citizens.

I had the privilege of visiting Marbach in Germany a few times. At the time we visited, all of the warmblood stallions were stabled in the same barn, next to each other, in stalls with partitions that let them see and touch each other. The Arab stallions are in another barn, stabled next to each other. Never saw a bad actor in the bunch.

And, of course, the Lippizan stallions in Vienna are stabled and worked together. Was pretty darn peaceful when we saw them there.

On the other hand, there have been some legendary bad bad bad TB and Standardbred stallions, but they are handled by experts and are valued for something other than their temperament, eh?