Hi, there has been a lot of talk about this here in Australia lately
Breeders are saying that stallions like Hotline are well known for passing on OCD or have a positive index for this
They are also saying Sezuan has tested positive for grade 3 OCD
I am just wondering if breeders in the USA also have a list of stallions available by frozen semen, that are known to have a positive index for OCD
Paula mc
I would like to know how they determine the stallion’s score for OCD.
I recently read that they randomly choose 14 foals from first crop gand X-ray them. I’m not sure at what age they do this, as the thing with OCD lesions is that they can come and go during the first 7 months of life ie. the cartilage has the ability to self-repair during this phase of growth. This highlights why it’s so important to feed foals properly to give them the nutrients required for the growth/repair processes.
Anyway, my point is that its possible that scores could be inaccurate if the sample size is small and because the age of the animal may affect the location of lesions due to growth patterns.
Also, there is a lot of emphasis on the stallion but do they screen the mares as well? Yes it is thought there is a hereditary link but its only part of the equation and whilst I can understand why breeders may not want to breed to a stallion that has OCD or has progeny with OCD, but do these breeders check their mares for OCD as well?
Personally I dont think you can selectively breed to reduce OCD by just selecting clean stallions. There are too many other factors!
I bet there are both plenty of clean young horses and those with silent OCD lesions that you would never know were there until years down the track, if at all.
One other point, given the frequency of surgical treatment of OCD lesions in young horses - particularly as it is curative in many cases, does a stallion owner have to declare if the horse has had surgery prior to licensing etc?
The only stallion ( I am aware of) who is confirmed by his registry to have OCD is a Dutch stallion approved by KWPN.
They disclosed the results of his x-rays to the breeders & why they decided to approve him anyway.
OCD is important, but as other posters have noted, it is a condition still not clearly understood and with a number of different causes…genetic being just one.
An even great cause is the management of the young foals in how much exercise they get as babies. Foals who are kept stalled much of the time have a higher incidence of OCD.
So you really couldn’t blame the stallion for something like this.
The KWPN test all stallions and give them a rating of 100, under 100 is positive, over is not
I think a random sample of foals are xrayed at 2 stages, as yearlings, and then again as 2 yos
Also Germany are now starting to do the same, although they do not ban stallions from breeding like the KWPN
I am not trying to blame the stallion for anything, this is not that type of post. Obviously mares have it and carry it as well and I am not talking about the type of ocd that foals get from being too fat or badly managed
There is obviously a genetic component to OCD. If a stallion himself has had it as a youngster and yes I think this should be disclosed to breeders, then obviously there is a chance that a proportion of the progeny will also inherit it, unless the stallions own ocd was also from bad management
I really don’t see why breeders cannot talk openly about this type of thing without people getting catty
This information is provided by the KWPN and now Germany are starting their own tests as well so the information should be in the public domain and I certainly would like to know which stallions have either had ocd themselves or have been known to pass it on
This doesn’t mean that either myself or other breeders will not use these stallions, but it would just be helpful to know
Paulamc
[QUOTE=paulamc;7040774]
The KWPN test all stallions and give them a rating of 100, under 100 is positive, over is not
Paulamc[/QUOTE]
It’s actually the opposite: a higher score is more positive for oc health and a score under 100 takes it towards the more negative result, as in less OC health among progeny. Also, the KWPN does not index every stallion because there has to be enough foals in the samples for the statistical reliability to be greater than a certain percentage, I think greater than 55 % or they won’t give an index. Also, they will not be giving an index retroactively to older stallions. I believe there are currently only 24 KWPN dressage stallions with an index for oc health, and a few more for the jumper stallions. There was recently another thread started here on this topic that includes some links: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?406171-KWPN-publishes-OCD-index.
I think it is also important to recognize that a stallion might radiograph and show some degree of oc himself, in his own joints, but since 75 % of oc is environmental, that does not mean he himself a genetic producer. Hence, it is the radiograph results of a stallions foals that gives the oc health index. If he has a lesion himself, it is a disclosure, and those lesions are given a class score, not an index.
Before anyone gives Sezuan a bad rap as a breeding stallion, you would have to know if he’s had enough foals that are old enough to sample radiograph in the first place. Also, he’s not a KWPN stallion, so he wouldn’t be included in their system. Look at the example of Bretton Woods and Bordeaux results.
I hope my post wasn’t seen as inflammatory.
I do think it is important that they study the genetic links with OCD but I think there is still not enough information to be able to draw conclusions.
It’s good to have the stats but how do you interpret them.
The genetic component may be an inherited pre-disposition ie ocd lesions will only occur in a certain set of circumstances eg environmental factors.
Too much remains unknown, but it is probably sensible to try and reduce your risks by using clean stallions. However, I have also read that even with selectively breeding against OCD in horses it has not reduced its occurrence. If only it were that easy 
It will be interesting if the German studbooks publish the results of X-rays etc. I thought some societies eg hano already xrayed but didn’t disclose. I could be wrong!
What is interesting is that ponies rarely have OCD so there are some breed factors involved.
I would sooner not use a stallion for a confirmation fault eg limb deviation, offset knees, poor neck set etc than not use because of a minor OCD lesion which may or may not be hereditary.
I think there is some confusion regarding the KWPN OCD testing and publishing of results… All approved KWPN stallion have been tested for OCD and until very recently, having positive results would keep a stallion from being approved. There have been two exceptions to this and they were made recently with Bordeaux and Bretton Woods, both stallion that were positive for OCD. What the KWPN has started doing more recently is randomly test offspring from younger stallions, not just Bordeaux and Bretton Woods, to see what the results were. Mind you, the only way anybody can know if the mare contributed to this is by having her x-rayed for Elite status. They did find that Bretton Woods’ offspring had a higher incidence rate of OCD, whereas Bordeaux offspring did not. It’s an on-going study and I think it will take some time before anybody can draw any really meaningful conclusions. In the meantime it’s just more information for breeders and I appreciate that. I would appreciate it even more if I didn’t have to be a member of the KWPN in order to have full access to this information (I am a member of the KWPN-NA and that doesn’t count )
I am not a pony expert by any means, but I know a total of THREE Connemaras, and two have OCD. Both fairly significant, one is a breeding stallion, the other seems destined to be a breeding mare. So that is a very small sample, but enough for me to wonder if it is true, or if they are just less xrayed? OTOH, ponies go through much less growth spurts, so maybe this does reduce lesions?
I do wish there was more disclosure in this area too.
[QUOTE=Indy-lou;7041051]
It’s actually the opposite: a higher score is more positive for oc health and a score under 100 takes it towards the more negative result, as in less OC health among progeny. Also, the KWPN does not index every stallion because there has to be enough foals in the samples for the statistical reliability to be greater than a certain percentage, I think greater than 55 % or they won’t give an index. Also, they will not be giving an index retroactively to older stallions. I believe there are currently only 24 KWPN dressage stallions with an index for oc health, and a few more for the jumper stallions. There was recently another thread started here on this topic that includes some links: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?406171-KWPN-publishes-OCD-index.
I think it is also important to recognize that a stallion might radiograph and show some degree of oc himself, in his own joints, but since 75 % of oc is environmental, that does not mean he himself a genetic producer. Hence, it is the radiograph results of a stallions foals that gives the oc health index. If he has a lesion himself, it is a disclosure, and those lesions are given a class score, not an index.
Before anyone gives Sezuan a bad rap as a breeding stallion, you would have to know if he’s had enough foals that are old enough to sample radiograph in the first place. Also, he’s not a KWPN stallion, so he wouldn’t be included in their system. Look at the example of Bretton Woods and Bordeaux results.[/QUOTE]
So they are x-raying foals at their inspections? Like foals 3-8 mos of age? Do they then re-x-ray them as 2 yr olds? Because it is my understanding that what appears to be OCD is often seen on horses under the age of 12 mos.
Is that correct or not?
Never mind – all my questions were answered in the link posted by Indy-Lou. Was it before or after this disclosure that Paul S. purchased Bretton Wood?
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/07/29/bretton-woods-sold-paul-schockemohle.
Bretton Woods was brilliant in the stallion testing performance and all stallions are radiographed during the stallion testing. They allowed him breeding approval at that point based on his performance despite his having an oc remark. He was among the most used stallions that year. It looks like he was soon sold to PS and it would only be after there were sufficient yearlings on the ground for foals to be randomly radiographed and an index to be established for heritability. Which is why we are just hearing about this index being assigned.
Could you please reveal the source of this kind of information ?
[QUOTE=Indy-lou;7041777]
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2013/06/06/oc-index-kwpn-stallions-bordeaux-and-bretton-woods-released[/QUOTE]
I love the opening line of that article -
As the sole innovative studbook in the world…
A bit arrogant, don’t you think? I guess KPWN regards all other registries in Europe as just chopped liver… :rolleyes:
But for the person who asked if the German registries x-ray stallions - I know Oldenburg requires it - (my horse had to have them done before he went to the selections - and they were “perfect”). The results of the x-rays are part of the stallion’s data sheet that is made available to the licensing commission, but they don’t bounce a stallion out from the licensing event if he doesn’t have clean x-rays. The results are also available to potential purchasers at the licensing. Some years back, while attending a licensing, we inquired about a horse in the licensing and were told, “Yah, but his x-rays were not so good.” His owners were quite matter-of-fact about the issue, and IIRC, the horse ended up not being licensed and was sold in the auction for non-licensed colts for a modest sum, with the buyers planning to geld him and market him to American buyers as a hunter prospect (he had quite a lovely jump).
Hannover also x rays Prior to the licensing, and not just since yesterday. Certain findings would result in not being selected/approved to go to the licensing in autumn at all.
But that was not what I thought was meant with Germany also starts now posted by someone else.
As only a slight deviation from the topic, here is an article that appeared in Horse Mag. online today:
Osteochondrosis—one of the most common forms of developmental orthopedic disease—in young Thoroughbreds can be directly linked to racing performance later in life, according to recent study results from a team of French equine orthopedics authorities.
The researchers found that the type and location of juvenile osteochondral condition (JOCC) lesions can affect when those horses race, how well they race, how long they’ll race, and if they’ll even end up racing at all, said Céline Robert, PhD, DVM, lecturer and researcher at the French National Veterinary School of Alfort in Maisons-Alfort. The lesions’ effect on performance is closely linked to their number and severity, Robert warned.
“Buyers (and especially advising veterinarians) should take into consideration not only the number of visible lesions in all radiographic images but also the severity of those lesions,” she said. “A single, isolated lesion that’s not very severe will probably have no influence on the horse’s career. By contrast, however, a serious lesion or the presence of several lesions could limit the horse’s career.”
Robert and colleagues followed the racing performances of 328 Thoroughbreds radiographed as yearlings; They found that those horses with the most JOCC lesions and those with the most severe JOCC lesions tended to start racing late, stop racing early, or not race at all, Robert said.
Lesions in the carpus joint (or knee)—which is a common site for racing injuries in Thoroughbreds—were a risk factor for not racing as a 2-year-old, but not as a 3-year-old, she said. “Progressive accommodation to training and maturity would overcome this disability at three years,” she reported in the study.
Lesions did not usually stop the horses from racing as 3-year-olds even if they missed their 2-year-olds debuts, she said. However, she noted that horses with a severe lesion, at least two lesions of moderate severity, or a lesion in the stifle had less chance of placing well in the race than the others. Multiple lesions or severe lesions also appeared to increase the risk of ending the racing career before 5 years of age, she added.
“An increase in (lesions) indicates a progressive increase in pathology and, while tolerable in some instances, is probably not acceptable once a certain degree of pathology is reached,” she stated in the report.
Radiographic imaging can be helpful before purchase but also before training, Robert said.
“A JOCC lesion is rarely going to stop a Thoroughbred from running, but it could reduce its performance in terms of winnings and career length,” she said. “Knowing the kinds of lesions you’re dealing with can help you manage the lesion and monitor it while adapting training accordingly, or even applying a treatment when possible.”
Some of this is rather “Duh…” in it’s findings, but some of the info is interesting. Not sure how much can be used when considering dressage & jumping competitors, but still…
The next step? I’d like to see a study done where one breeds OCD positive stallions to OCD positive mares, then have breeders radically monitor one’s management of the foal – then x-ray the babies at 2yrs of age. That would give so much info…
But a question – how many of you are x-raying your MARES? And this goes for European breeders as well. We go on and on and on on COTH about how mares count for so much – in this case shouldn’t MARES be x-rayed prior to THEIR approval?
KWPN mares who carry either the PROK or ELITE predicate have been radiographed to the same standard as approved stallions, however being radiographed for oc is not required of mares to be approved in the studbook other than for those predicates. It’s true the mare is 50% of the genetic equation, but it makes sense that the approval focus is on stallions, as stallions have the potential to sire thousands of offspring, whereas a single mare couldn’t have that sort of effect on the population.
Public disclosure?
[QUOTE=DownYonder;7042838]
But for the person who asked if the German registries x-ray stallions - I know Oldenburg requires it - [/QUOTE]
Are the the x-ray results available through membership? What about other European registries?
If not, why?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7043503]
The next step? I’d like to see a study done where one breeds OCD positive stallions to OCD positive mares, then have breeders radically monitor one’s management of the foal – then x-ray the babies at 2yrs of age. That would give so much info…
?[/QUOTE]
I would love to see a study like this! There needs to be a control group though. One where the feeding program is “wrong” and one that’s supposedly “right”. And then see how much the genetics could be affected.
[QUOTE=Indy-lou;7043737]
KWPN mares who carry either the PROK or ELITE predicate have been radiographed to the same standard as approved stallions, however being radiographed for oc is not required of mares to be approved in the studbook other than for those predicates. It’s true the mare is 50% of the genetic equation, but it makes sense that the approval focus is on stallions, as stallions have the potential to sire thousands of offspring, whereas a single mare couldn’t have that sort of effect on the population.[/QUOTE]
True enough, but it Stallion A was + for OCD and bred 50 mares who were also + for it and 50 mares who weren’t – well, it stands to reason there is a good chance he would produce a higher % of foals with the condition.
So in terms of info for the breeders, I’m not sure it’s that helpful. I suppose the smart breeder would do a full set of rads on their mare before they chose an OCD + stallion OR hope that management will carry the day.
It didn’t seem to turn people away from Bretton Woods, so it will be interesting to see.
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