Stallions to cross with Draft mare?

[Megan]

Hello all!
I am looking at having a mare bred for me. The mare is a lightly boned Belgian draft. Lovely moved, and not to drafty. She is 17.2hh. I am looking to breed to for a Sport horse, eventing (lower level), dressage, and western gaming(for fun), and general all-around fun! I’m looking for stallions to complement her. I will have to ask her owner if it is OK to post pics of her, but until then, who wants to stud hunt??

My wish list:

-Appaloosa, Knabstrupper, Stonewall Sport Horse, anything appaloosa-colored if ya get my drift.
-crosses of either is fine(IE - Friesan/Appy, TB/Appy, Knab/?)
-colored!
-16h or better
-no down-hill horses!

I’m window shopping for now, and so stud fee is unlimited(in theory!).

So show me the ones that make you drool!
Thanks!

[skydy]

Instead of “window shopping” you should be reading, though I know it may not be as fun.

Breeding a “Friesan (sic)/Appy” or any other “cross” to a draft mare is not something any wise person would consider if they were breeding for a sport horse. There are too many variables.

If you wish for a horse of a certain color then don’t breed a Belgian draft mare, especially to a crossbred stallion. Even a purebred Appy or Knabstrupper will not necessarily produce color.

You would be much better off buying a horse from a reputable breeder than conducting an experiment and ending up with a disappointing (color) and unsuitable (conformation)horse. :yes:

[Skyedragon]

As far as I know to get a Stonewall Sport Horse you will need to breed to either a Stonewall or to a Sugarbush. I think the only Sugarbush stallion that is currently breeding is Sugarbush’s Harley Classic O.

I am rather disapointed in the people running the Sugarbush association. Recently they did an open registration and accepted pretty much anything and everything that applied with no apparent consideration for their breed standard. My friend has a really nice looking mare that fits the breed standard that she recently tried to get registered with them and they turned her down. She is 10x better looking than half of the horses they accepted.

Another thing to consider is that breeding draft crosses can be a bit of a carp shoot. Sometimes they come out looking amazing like my current draft cross lease gelding, and sometimes they come out looking like a mish-mash of the two breeds. I live near a barn that use to breed TB x Percheron crosses and some came out amazing and some came out looking like disasters.

[CuriosoJorge]

[QUOTE=Skyedragon;7060177]
Another thing to consider is that breeding draft crosses can be a bit of a carp shoot. [/QUOTE]

Is that like shooting fish in a barrel?

[JB]

There are only 2 horses that I personally am aware of who have shown to produce nice crosses with draft mares. Gatsby, and Guaranteed Gold (who will guarantee you color, obviously).

There are probably others, but I have seen enough crosses between these 2 on draft mares to feel good about saying they are good at that.

Take that knowing there is no picture of your mare

[_Tradewind]

It sounds like your first priority is colour over quality/athleticism, which seems like a rather backwards way to go about making breeding decisions. Chances are, unless you hit the genetic lottery, crossing a Draft with an Appy is not going to get you a particularly athletic, nice moving horse. If your only ambition is to have something uniquely coloured with which you can bomb around at the lower levels, I would think you’d be better off to buy an Appy or Appy cross youngster that is the colour you want and instead of trying to breed one. It will realistically probably cost you less to buy a nicely coloured Appy foal than to produce your own, and then you will have a better idea of what you’re going to end up with.

[VirginiaBred]

Sid, who posts here will have some outstanding suggestions.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=JB;7060285]
There are only 2 horses that I personally am aware of who have shown to produce nice crosses with draft mares. Gatsby, and Guaranteed Gold (who will guarantee you color, obviously).

There are probably others, but I have seen enough crosses between these 2 on draft mares to feel good about saying they are good at that.

Take that knowing there is no picture of your mare ;)[/QUOTE]

Guaranteed Gold will not produce the spotted horse that OP wants.

[Megan]

Let me just clarify for those who are assuming I only want a large, colorful horse -

Good conformation is my #1 priority, a well tempered and trainable horse comes next, then a “colored” foal. I could honestly care less about having an Appaloosa/Draft, but if I am going to pay the money and breed, then I will make sure it is everything I want. Genetics are not something that I can control, no one can, but I can pick an Appaloosa stallion to complement this mare and hope for the best. Just like every breeder does with every breeding. You try to make a great match, and hope the foal comes out like you dream.

Yes, I want color.
No, it is not the only thing I am looking for.

I came to this forum because it is one of the most highly regarded open forums. I expected some benefit of the doubt that I do actually know the risks of breeding a horse. And for those who say I’m better off buying, I refuse to buy a horse site-unseen or at auction, and in my area that is basically the only way to find a draft cross.

Thank you to those of you who have shown me stallions. I love GG, but have not considered him yet. If I can find a nicely build Appy to complement her that is what I will go with, or a Stonewall Sport Horse.

Gatsby is very nice also.

My #1 consideration right now is Wapuzzan.
#2 Butterwap Confetti.

[JB]

[QUOTE=skydy;7061303]
Guaranteed Gold will not produce the spotted horse that OP wants.[/QUOTE]

@Megan;7059855

-colored!

LOL, out of those 2 suggestions, GG is the one you point out? :lol:

[Timex]

[QUOTE=Megan;7061375
And for those who say I’m better off buying, I refuse to buy a horse site-unseen or at auction, and in my area that is basically the only way to find a draft cross.
.[/QUOTE]

have you considered traveling to find a nice youngster? that you can at least SEE in person and not run the risk of breeding something that ultimately wont work for you? for the same cost of breeding the mare, and keeping her, plus the foal, until it’s ready to ride, you could probably pretty easily travel to see a few promising ones, do a PPE and buy, for a pretty similar cost. let’s be realistic, draft crosses tend not to sell for big $$$, especially in this market. it’s a buyer’s market, might as well use that to your advantage.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=JB;7061454]
LOL, out of those 2 suggestions, GG is the one you point out? :lol:[/QUOTE]

Only because you wrote that he is certain to produce color, but she wants SPOTS! :lol:

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Megan;7061375]

Good conformation is my #1 priority, a well tempered and trainable horse comes next, then a “colored” foal. I could honestly care less about having an Appaloosa/Draft, but if I am going to pay the money and breed, then I will make sure it is everything I want. Genetics are not something that I can control, no one can, but I can pick an Appaloosa stallion to complement this mare and hope for the best. Just like every breeder does with every breeding. You try to make a great match, and hope the foal comes out like you dream.

Yes, I want color.
No, it is not the only thing I am looking for.

I came to this forum because it is one of the most highly regarded open forums. I expected some benefit of the doubt that I do actually know the risks of breeding a horse. And for those who say I’m better off buying, I refuse to buy a horse site-unseen or at auction, and in my area that is basically the only way to find a draft cross.
.[/QUOTE]

Actually genetics are something you can control in the sense that you choose the parents of your foal. Your using horses that will give you the least predictable out come, as in cross breeds and off sport breeds.

I don’t think anyone is being mean or trying to belittle your choice but you must realize that you came to a forum where people try to cut down the random results by breeding using generations of known results and with a sport goal in mind foremost. And while conformation is important, it is the ability that general comes first in the goal department otherwise this would be the halter class forum.
The type of horse you are trying to breed is out there and going to the auction market for meat everyday. Not because it isn’t a nice horse but because there are tons of horses out there with those credentials and no homes. The type of breeding you are suggesting will more than likely be extremely average in the eventing discipline as you well know and may not have the color you desire. So why not, get the whole color and temperament package for sure by just purchasing a young horse? And save a horses life and give it a great home.
If you had come here with performance goals, it would be much easier to suggest stallions.
This forum is highly regarded because the level of knowledge comes from excellent breeders in sport horse breeding. And people are trying to warn you that there is easier ways to reach your goals. Maybe consider what they are saying.

And for those who say I’m better off buying, I refuse to buy a horse site-unseen or at auction, and in my area that is basically the only way to find a draft cross.
-Ironically, that is what you are doing when you breed, and especially two horses that are so unpredictable in the outcome.

BTW - I own a wonderful draft cross as well but I wouldn’t try and breed for him. He would be harder to get than a above average WB because he is more of a fluke and they are predictable.

[JB]

[QUOTE=skydy;7061794]
Only because you wrote that he is certain to produce color, but she wants SPOTS! :lol:[/QUOTE]
Her wish list includes appy spots AND color. That was my point

[skydy]

I didn’t mention breeding the homozygous black stallion with a Belgian draft mare because it would not be a guarantee of any color other than “not chestnut”…

The cremello stallion you mentioned WOULD guarantee a dilute color.

Obviously neither would be spotted! :lol:

[Megan]

[QUOTE=JB;7061867]
Her wish list includes appy spots AND color. That was my point ;)[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry to be confusing. Where I am from, even bay appies are considered “colored” at least by most people.
ETA - By colored, I ment patterned, I should have clarified. I don’t care to get a “dunalino leopard majikal draft” ya know?

Although I understand your points. Traveling to Canada or wherever to look for a foal to haul back south, or even a yearling, is just as big of a risk in my opinion. Shipping fever, lice, mites, anything they can get from being shipped with other horses that are in less than stellar conditions. Colic from stress of traveling that much. Anything could happen in either situation.

This is not set in stone yet, however, I would like to find hypothetical studs for her. Talk it over with her owner, who is an experienced breeder, and get her opinion about the possible crosses and how she feels about it.

I know I cannot possibly find every sport-horse type appaloosa out their and was hoping for some help.

[JB]

The risks associated with breeding the mare and not getting the foal you want, are probably less than not ending up with a healthy weanling or yearling that you purchase

You don’t just go to Canada to look - you do a ton of fingerwork first.

If you don’t know about Broadway Boogie Woogie, look into him. I have absolutely no idea if he’s ever produced foals from draft mares or even crosses. He himself might not be light enough/produce light enough for this mare. He has a lighter son, Captain America, who is from a Holtein mare stamm 5585.

With the appies, unless you are breeding homozygous LP and homozygous PATN, you still have a chance of having a totally solid, or a characteristic-only horse, so keep that in mind when breeding.

[Blume_Farm]

I don’t think anyone can give you a true stallion suggestion as nothing has been said about the mare other than breed and height. Only stallions that produce color or have been bred to a draft in the past have been mentioned. What needs to be determined (and you can describe this without necessarily having pics for everyone) is:
how is her head, neck set?
How is her saddle position?
Her legs? Her croup? Her topline?
Her gaits? walk, trot, canter? Jump?

Has she been bred before? What about her parents, do you know her lineage?

These are the most important questions regarding the mare to help you determine a stallion choice. Then once you get that settled start looking at stallions. Ask what traits the stallion passes? How are is offspring doing in sport? What are the terms of the breeding contract? You need to look at conformation shots of the stallions, video…not just a single picture on the internet.

You best chances of breeding what you want will be greatly improved by doing lots and lot of leg work before hand. Sadly, it is true though that you have a much greater chance putting that leg work into buying a horse already here. This way you can determine that is has the conformation, movement, temperament…and color that you desire. It has taken me 8 years to finally get the filly I have been trying to breed…and that is after 3K in breeding fees (stud fee, vet fees) , 15K for colic surgery the mare had 24 hours after foaling and the approximate 3K it will cost to surgically correct a defect the filly has. That is a lot of money that was not “prepared” for but had to be done. I could have traveled all over the place looking at horses for that much money!

I don’t breed a ton of horses by any stretch of the imagination…but in my small career I have had one foal die from trauma, one red bag delivery, one post foaling colic, one year of 5K in breeding/vet fees and no pregnancy, a foal with physitis, and now this year with a mare colic surgery and a future surgery on the foal. And I am vet that does EVERY preventable measure possible for safe breeding, foaling and raising of youngsters!!! It can be MUCH cheaper to do a lot of internet searching and a little travel and buy a horse already fitting your desires.

Remember, when breeding your own you are “buying sight unseen”, have to get the mare pregnant, safely through 340 days of pregnancy, then through 6 months of foal time, then weaning and three more years of the most trauma riddled years until you can even ride them!

[stoicfish]

@Megan;7061896

Although I understand your points. Traveling to Canada or wherever to look for a foal to haul back south, or even a yearling, is just as big of a risk in my opinion. Shipping fever, lice, mites, anything they can get from being shipped with other horses that are in less than stellar conditions. Colic from stress of traveling that much. Anything could happen in either situation.

I bet you do not have to come to Canada to find a nice young prospect. But and fwiw, shipping isn’t that scary. Many competition horses go back and forth from Canada to the US with no issues.
Give people on here a state and I bet you might get some great suggestions for places to look.
Example http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1878176
or phone these people and ask about this fellow and if any foals are available from larger mares. http://www.avalon-equine.com/colorado-skroslashdstrup.html

[SpotMyH_J]

I just wrote a long post but I’m not sure where it went since I’m on my phone

But OP - basically what I said is that while I’m not poo-pooing the idea and this mare might be lovely. It will definitely be cheaper and easier to find something already on the ground (and broke) than playing the waiting game with breeding. You don’t need to necessarily buy a horse from auction to get what you want and there are very reputable shippers that won’t break the bank (shipped my mare over 600+ miles for $500).

It took about 2 seconds and this was the first ad I looked at, I found this guy my just googling draft appaloosa. In my opinion, he looks and sounds fun - dead broke with some potential for the lower level eventing. And he’s still got the size you want. They also say they’ll email for pictures and video

http://www.horseclicks.com/big-gentle-appy-trail-gelding/horses/326850

I love searching for horses for sale, so if you’d like help PM me and I’ll help scour the Internet for spotted draft beasties already on the ground