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Starting a breeding program as a poor student

I think she was specifically speaking about Warmblood breeders in Alberta. :wink: As someone who is also a breeder in Alberta, I have to agree with the OP. Of course, the reputable breeders are doing their homework, breeding performance mares to performance stallions, etc., but there are a lot of warmblood breeders in Alberta who are breeding non-performance mares to non-performance stallions and expecting to produce FEI prospects.

To answer the OPs question, I would wait until you are financially stable before venturing into breeding.

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Kathy and Jos of Equine Reproduction usually travel around this time of year putting on reproduction courses. I sponsored one many years ago and it was the most comprehensive, amazing and complete A-Z learning experience for any breeder to take. They also give you a textbook that is like a breeding bible and are available on their website or via phone for any questions. They are truly gurus in the breeding knowledge. Take the course!

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If you have the finances, Iā€™d actually recommend starting now. Breeding is one of those ā€˜slow burnā€™ projects, and even if you found the perfect mare now and bred her this coming spring, youā€™ll only have 2 foals on the ground when youā€™re finished your residency training in 3 years. Just having 1-2 well bred mares, older with performance records, should be feasible, and breeding to the best stallion costs the same in general non-studfee costs as the local whatever. So research bloodlines, find out what lines cross well with the dam, and go for it. I think two broodmares bred AI and carrying their own will cost you less than buying a young mare to ride and doing ET.

Iā€™m not a poor college student, but I am a poor military member. I have a very small scale breeding program. My original goal was to breed for myself and maybe 1-2 foals to sell every year. So far Iā€™ve had the foal that looks AMAZING on paper fail to develop the way we hoped, and heā€™ll likely be a keeper or low-budget horse for a different discipline. One filly was born prematurely with lots of health issues. It cost an additional $10K or so in vet fees to get her through it, and now weā€™ve sunk so much emotional and financial capital into her that sheā€™ll never be for sale. Iā€™m still hopeful sheā€™ll develop into a nice performance horse. This yearā€™s foal required an emergency C-section, we almost lost the mare, and the foal didnā€™t make it.
Iā€™ve also had 4 breedings Iā€™ve paid for but the mare didnā€™t take.
So, in 7 attempts, Iā€™ve got 2 on the ground. Neither marketable for various reasons. This has been with top-level repro vets and colleges overseeing things every step of the way.

So breeding can be truly heartbreaking. Even having your own farm and a relationship with a vet practice/school that reduces your costs, itā€™s an expensive hobby.
And while some people buy off papers, others want young horses with show experience and professional-quality marketing, which are also expensive.

We need educated breeders to produce the next-gen performance horses, but itā€™s important to be realistic. I agree with other posters that buying an older, well-bred performance mare is the right way to go. There is a market for WBs from TB dams bred to the WB-stallion-flavor-of-the-month, but your savvy buyers are going to want proven lines top and bottom.

Good luck and we canā€™t wait to hear what you decide.

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Alberta is wonderful horse country but predominantly ranch and Quarterhorse. QH breeders with lots of acreage are rather notorious everywhere for sometimes breeding quantity over quality and even sending healthy young culls to the slaughter auctions. Also I think people tend to have their own QH studs.

So my guess is that there could be a culture of quantity over quality and an idea that the price premium on a WB would make breeding anything profitable.

ā€ā€¹ā€ā€¹ā€ā€¹ā€ā€¹ā€ā€¹ā€ā€¹ā€ā€¹Where land and hay are cheap and folks are generally horse savvy, there are not a lot of start up costs to breeding if you dont need to drop a lot of cash on your breeding stock! So I can see where the conditions can favor trying to breed WB like QH.

Iā€™m local to a slaughter auction where they routinely have ā€œproduction salesā€ of 15 or 20 yearlings from a single farm. Like one or two a month. Honestly breaks my heart to see that level of mass production with no end goal for a home other than to dump them at an auctionā€¦ reminds me of puppy mills. The WB breeders here arenā€™t that bad for sure, but there is definitely a quantity over quality mentality out there!

Thanks for all the great thoughts guys!

I would ask yourself what you really are comfortable spending right now on a broodmare or a filly? You will not find a ā€œfoundationā€ type filly for less than 15,000 and that is if you can even find a filly with the dam line that combines performance with a depth of pedigree. You can find an older mare, but a truly top-producing older mare is only being let go because she has one or two more foals in her before retirement or has reproductive issues. These mares are still worth their weight in gold and will only be allowed to go to the best home and usually with contract provisions that require retirement and forbid sale. Will you have the funds to acquire one of these type mareā€™s and possibly have ET as your only option for a foal? Yes, it is possible to find a mare that ended their performance career with an injury, but 99% of the time these mares have mediocre dam lines and a solid but not brilliant performance record. The truly great performance mares have real value or sentimental value. Often an owner will retire with a breeder he/she has a personal relationship with because they want to see the mare be happy in a second job (but this scenario usually comes with well-established connections in the show world). With the current market trends, I would also not count on being able to sell any colt foals for as much as you have in to the foal until you are a few years down the line and established your name and product. Even well bred foals from popular frozen stallions and out of performance mares are not always flying off the shelves without fancy marketing, name recognition, repeat buyers, ect.

Breeding is very expensive and not for the faint of heart. I would hard pass on this, because if the baby or mare need lifesaving intervention, would you be able to afford it? A sick baby can easily run up a 5 figure hospital bill. Easily.

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One additional thought: Iā€™m not sure what your residency is in, but how do you plan to foal out mares? I do emergency and critical care, and even though I work a set schedule, I canā€™t call up and say sorry, Iā€™m not coming in tonight because I have a mare who looks ready to foal. Much like the cobblerā€™s children and shoes, our own animals tend to come behind the clientsā€™.

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Anatomic pathology, but itā€™s primarily a Masters degree so I am largely able to set my own hours, even on short notice. And no on call or after hours to worry about!

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huh. I think we have different definitions of ā€œpoorā€ :lol:

Honestly, though, this might be a good time to think of the olā€™ chestnut: The best way to make a small fortune in the horse business is to start with a large one.

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Or the other old chestnut ā€œfools breed horses for wise men to buyā€

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If you wish to circumvent extraordinary expenses, you could look into insurance plans for mare and foal.

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Well, the consensus is probably donā€™t do it.

Given where you are, however, look at regustered TB mares and find the best one you can. TBs have been performance tested for centuries and it is easy to get information about families and bloodlines as well as personal performance on the track. Racing, and training to race, is one of the most demanding things we ask horses to do. If you look at ā€œmodernā€ WBs there is TB probably only a generation or two back, depending on the discipline, to add refinement to the mixture, though that does seem to be a bit if a dirty secret within the world of WB breeding. The TB breeds true. Alternatively, find yourself an athletic registered QH mare, again probably with a lot of TB (another group of breeders using blood for speed and stamina) where you know families and bloodlines. Then find a good registered WB jumping stallion, with a solid performance and breeding record, and use AI. A 1.20 jumper is not very ambitious so a reasonable starting point for you to subsequently improve upon.

Iā€™ve been watching a lot of webinars over the Covid summer from StallionAI who are a UK business that is very forward thinking. They collect from world class stallions and would be very supportive.

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If the OP has any interest whatsoever in breeding to sell, or circumstances change and their produce must be for sale, TB or QH damlines will be a very difficult marketing proposition.

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She said breeding for a 1.20m jumper for herself and possibly upgrade in the future.

I understand what she said. :slight_smile: Please reread my post. The fact remains that circumstances change, and itā€™s irresponsible to breed for a low goal purposefully when we slaughter that sort of horse every day. Plan for every produceā€™s future whether it involves you or not.

Even if she keeps a resulting filly, a Thoroughbred damline is an uphill struggle, and a QH one would be even more so, as a QH damline would either take many generations to move up to full WB approval or in some cases never would, depending on the registry.

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Itā€™s very, very common to ā€œbreed the best and ride the restā€ when it comes to WB mares. Thatā€™s for sure different from many other disciplines, where a performance record is ā€œrequiredā€.

Thatā€™s changing a little bit with the more easily accessible, more studied, and relatively ā€œcheapā€ ET options. But overall, the best WB mares donā€™t usually go to a performance career. Mares already have a limited # of foals they can have, and if you donā€™t start breeding until they have a solid performance record at a high enough level, youā€™ve already ā€œwastedā€ 8 foals, give or take.

Breeds/registries that highly value the mare line, like WB breeders, know the value of the mare without her ever having to step foot in a ring. Her entire pedigree is filled with mares who produced stallions and geldings, and mares, who had successful performance careers.

And if youā€™re buying an older broodmare who has produced foals, from a reputable breeding program, just make sure sheā€™s produce horses who have done something. Who cares what the mare (or stallion) has done, if they have the offspring to prove they can produce what you want.

Donā€™t get me wrong, I think having a stallion prove HE has what it takes to pass on quality, by way of what heā€™s capable of doing, ie the 30/70/100 day test, registry approvals, is valuable because of the sheer number of foals a stallion can put on the ground every single year. Stallions canā€™t pass on the mtDNA, but they can pass on what the rest of the DNA has to offer.

But also, people every year jump to breeding young, unproven (breeding OR performance) stallions because they have the current hot pedigree, so clearly that counts for something.

Breeding to a 4yo stallion with an upper level sire and damsire, with the dam a proven producer, isnā€™t a big crapshoot.

@awesomenessity you donā€™t say what your ā€œbeer budgetā€ is. I donā€™t know CN exchanges now, but for $12-15k USD, you should be able to buy a pretty well-bred filly. If thatā€™s not in this yearā€™s budget, then save for the next year, look to see what breeders are having in-utero sales (riskier, but also potentially saving a few thousand, contract for a filly).

Donā€™t neglect looking at yearlings. They tend to be closer to foal $ than 3yo $, and youā€™d reduce some of the risk of stupid-foal syndrome :lol:

Keep putting $ into a foal fund, so if you donā€™t find the foal this year, or yearling next year, then potentially a 2yo the year after. IMHO, thatā€™s a better option than buying an older broodmare, UNLESS you can find a younger one who is being sold because the breeder has a keeper-daughter, or is moving a different direction (changing disciplines, for example) and the mare doesnā€™t fit the program anymore. Thatā€™s a better breeding risk than the older broodie.

And thereā€™s always the option of a broodie already in foal, sold as a 2-fer. You could potentially recoup some of your cost by selling that foal if itā€™s not the filly you want.

There are lots of options - ones that donā€™t necessitate acting now, or are cheaper but riskier, or allow you to save for a more $ but less risky alternative.

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Something else to consider: If you are starting your residency are you going to have the time and energy for this?

This is incorrect - except for Holsteiners. MANY WB breeders utilize performance mares that also come from exceptional families. THAT is the goal. This especially true for show jumping breeders in Belgium, the Netherlands and France. Hence Anneā€™s comment that utilizing a TB or QH mare as a foundation mare is counterproductive in terms of value and marketing of offspring. In Europe, itā€™s achieved by breeding the mare at 3 and 4 and then going the performance route while harvesting embryos.

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If I were in your shoes, and one of your main goals is to have a riding horse for you, I would consider getting a high quality filly/yearling/2yo. Plan to start under saddle in her 3yo year, breed in her 4yo year and take to a few local shows/continue training through the winter. Foal out in her 5yo year, then she can either return to training post-baby as a show horse for you while baby grows, be for sale as a riding horse with proceeds to re-invest in your breeding program, or breed again if you really like the foal, or she has a colt and you want to try again for a filly. If you donā€™t think you can find a filly you want to ride/show in the future in your budget now, then you donā€™t have the budget to buy a filly you want to breed ;), and count your pennies a little longer.

This gives you options - you have a horse to ride as your horse ages, you have a horse that has a performance future if you change your mind about breeding altogether, and you hopefully have a horse that is sell-able and increased in value having been started under saddle by you. Of course, risks would be that reproductive fitness is unknown and young horses have a natural tendency for accidents and large vet bills!

Do you have much foaling out experience? If not, Iā€™d beg my way into spending lots and lots of time with the most experienced breeder/foaling manager in your area this spring, and consider the year after offering foaling out boarding to get more experience and make sure itā€™s something you really want to do before you get too invested.