xcjumper, you are right. They were 1 year apart. Was Linda’s at the little up hill bounce behind the water park? You had to be pretty accurate there since there was an offset to it.
Andrew removed the entire water complex where Ken died. It was a simple down bank from then on.
Reed
ESJ, the Chronicle magazine reported on all of these incidents and have the details in their archives. I’d email them if you don’t get what you need from the common rabble here.
While I don’t remember the specifics of Roberta Scioscia’s accident other than it was at Prelim somewhere in North Carolina, one thing I do remember is that she was at the event by herself and the medical card in her armband provided the only information they had on her.
Riders are often lazy/incomplete in filling out or updating their medical info, and it’s easy to think that no one really pays attention to what’s in there. But this was one occasion when it was very useful to the medical team and organizers.
Hi Reed
Yes it was the bounce behind that other water jump further up. Not the one that Ken died at. That was a hanging log drop into water when Ken tried to jump it. It was an ugly thing…
[QUOTE=RAyers;5334776]
Ken was a friend of mine. He was a great supporter of the sport in Colorado and the west. Yes, he died on course at Trojan Horse. He attempted to jump a preliminary fence from a standstill and the horse flipped, folding Ken in half (broken spine, something a air vest would not have helped). His crash was the reason the rule preventing jumping from a standstill was instituted.
My old trainer was with Linda Riddle when she crashed. He was holding her head in place afterwards. From what I remember, her helmet was crushed into pieces. I do not remember the details of the cause of the incident though.
Reed[/QUOTE]
Ken died in March of 1997. Since I was in the warm up, geting ready and than the long hold and the jump taken out I took a real serious look at the tracks.
His horse had a very distinct left rear foot print.
I was able to track it back 3 jumps. Big Bench typ table, sunken road, large waldens wall, turn left up a small hill, 3 steps down hanging log with a huge drop into the water.
Their was already trouble brewing at the bench, slide mark befor take of, same at the drop into the sunken road, the slide mark in front of the walden wall was pretty much 3 feed long. there was a short gallop to the turn, around 100 feet as I recall and one could see that Ken goosed it, deep hind prints and very large stride. Judging by the tracks and the slide marks and how the hind steped out, they must have had a very rough go down the steps to the hanging log ( that was a jump scarry as hell and it needed a very confident and forward approach ).
Than as Reed all ready explained they got to a standstill at the edge of the drop and than jumped, rotated and the horse landed on the rider.
Trojan Prelim to Advanced were very tough courses, time was next to impossible, very narrow and confusing trails, deep sandy footing, some times 3 water, down hill bounce, lots of corners, hanging logs and other goodies.
If I have the correct individual, I believe Roberta Scioscia was the competitor who fell at the FENCE cross country course. 2 organizations host events at this site, FENCE HT and Tryon HT, twice a year.
It was the 3rd fence on course going up the long hill. It was an inviting fence that normally only caused run-outs, so (if memory is correct) her fall was researched rather thoroughly.
I remember Linda’s fall, I wasn’t at that particular fence, but I was at the water two fences before that bounce. Through the water she was having a very sticky go, it looked like her horse didn’t really want to play. One of my freinds was in the warm-up with Linda, and Linda said before she went, he isn’t feeling right, I wonder what is going on? My friend says that she regrets not saying to Linda perhaps this isn’t your day, come back next weekend for another try.
What a depressing conversation…
[QUOTE=three_dayer;5336306]
I remember Linda’s fall, I wasn’t at that particular fence, but I was at the water two fences before that bounce. Through the water she was having a very sticky go, it looked like her horse didn’t really want to play. One of my freinds was in the warm-up with Linda, and Linda said before she went, he isn’t feeling right, I wonder what is going on? My friend says that she regrets not saying to Linda perhaps this isn’t your day, come back next weekend for another try.
What a depressing conversation…[/QUOTE]
Stuff like this does not surprise me. The investigations are rather on the surface and do not teach anything.
Accidents of that magnitude have a story that leads to the accident. I have looked at hundreds of videos that show the mechanics of the accident, but the explanation, how could this happen shows up in the jumps before or by those little bits of private info, did not feel well, was scared, to confident, non chalant, lost shoes, did not know when to call it a day, bad stud choise, pushed horse or rider, coaching, etc.
I sure wish this was the type of education the safety committees were pushing. How to tell when to call it a day. Why you should listen to the little things that are NQR with your horse. Techniques that have more to do with recognizing reality than the power of positive thinking.
SCFarm
[QUOTE=LLDM;5336745]
I sure wish this was the type of education the safety committees were pushing. How to tell when to call it a day. Why you should listen to the little things that are NQR with your horse. Techniques that have more to do with recognizing reality than the power of positive thinking.
SCFarm[/QUOTE]
I wish trainers were pushing this more. I was pressured into riding at one show by my old trainer and had the most terrifying cross country experience in my life. I’m typically a brave rider but in the warmup I knew that if I went on course something would go wrong. I told my trainer what I was feeling and she put it up to riding a younger horse. Five fences in I was about to cry and saying to myself that if the next jump was bad I would call it a day. The next fence was fine so I decided to keep going only to later get stuck on a fence that could have easily been a rotation instead. I retired and went off the course crying and was met by an angry trainer yelling at me for not continuing the course. I was never able to ride that horse again and it took me a year before I was comfortable out cross country.
I was very lucky in my circumstance that it did not turn into a rotation but I cannot say other people I know have had the same luck. I have heard many riders saying that they are nervous or something is off before a course and then later hear that they were for some reason or another not able to finish the course. In most of those cases I did not feel I had the right to even suggest for the person not to run the course. How can we get to a point where it is not considered ‘out of our rights’ to suggest someone not to run and potentially avoid an injury? How can we educate riders not to think that it’s ‘just one bad jump,’ ‘That slip around the turn was just from mud’, or ‘I must be imagining it’? Maybe we could have educated spectators pulling unsafe riders during the course, but then I can see the problem of someone complaining that they are being pulled when they were safe.
Unfortunately, no matter how safe eventing becomes there will always be those accidents that could have been avoided. Every death should be examined including the riders attitude up to but not limited to an hour before the ride. Each fatal accident should be looked at as a way to improve awareness so that while their is a great loss something has been gained. Until that happens we need to keep asking questions to improve our system.
[QUOTE=LLDM;5336745]
I sure wish this was the type of education the safety committees were pushing. How to tell when to call it a day. Why you should listen to the little things that are NQR with your horse. Techniques that have more to do with recognizing reality than the power of positive thinking.[/QUOTE]
I clearly remember 2 incidents on the same day almost 3 years ago. I was taking photos. For the Intermediate XC I was at one of the water obstacles (a pond with no banked edges, just beach into the water on all sides) which had a 1-stride (log to log-into-water, no drop) - this was about jump 8 on the Intermediate course. A rider came thru and her horse jumped in nicely and then stopped at the out. She regrouped, got up to a good gallop and came again. Her horse again jumped in nicely, stopped at the out. Instead of trying a 3rd time, she patted her horse on the neck and nodded at the jump judge, and retired.
An hour later I was taking photos at a different water complex during the Advanced XC. The jump into the water was a straight-forward log jump about 3’ high, with about 3 feet of drop on the landing into the water (which was about 1’ deep), and it was ~5 strides in the water before the next obstacle - this is not the type of jump you expect to cause problems for an Advanced horse. This was jump 14A on the course and IIRC they had already jumped in water earlier on in the course (at the pond, where I was for the first horse above). As this rider came thru, her horse started balking from several strides out, coming to a halt at the base of the jump with his neck over the log, looking at the water. She took him around, got her gallop going, and brought him on again, and he started balking several strides out (again), and stopped at the base of the jump again, with his neck over the jump. She took him around and got the gallop on again, he started balking again, and she stuffed him over as he tried to stop the 3rd time. He only got part way off the ground, hung one of his forelegs, and had a dramatic rotational fall into the water, and appeared to partially land on the rider. Fortunately, that foot of water apparently helped cushion the fall and they both got up and walked off on their own power, wet and winded but not seriously hurt.
My thoughts on this: If you are riding an experienced (upper level) horse, and it refuses twice at the same obstacle, it’s probably not a very good idea to make a 3rd try.
For lower level horses 3 tries make sense because the stops may be due to rider errors and riders may need more chances to figure out what they are doing wrong and present the horse correctly. But when you have an ULR on a BTDT horse who has seen pretty much everything on XC, if this horse stops twice he’s trying to tell you something IMPORTANT about how he feels about this jump on this day. (A first stop can be due to confusion, due to not quite seeing the question clearly, etc. But after that first stop both the horse and rider have had time to figure out how to approach it correctly the second time.) Consider being more like the first rider and listening to your horse and saying “OK, today is not our day” and retiring, rather than thinking that you can change your horse’s mind as he tries to stop for the 3rd time and that somehow (over fences of this size!) things will magically work out OK.
I took a look at some detailed scores for recent UL events. It was very unusual to see a horse score 60 at a jump, more common to see 60-E (or 60-RF). At the lower levels you see 60 more, along with 20 and 60-E and 20-RF and 60-RF etc. But at the upper levels, if you get that second stop it’s not likely to turn out very well to try again.
I don’t know if we should have a rule change limiting upper level riders to 1 stop per obstacle or not. But I do know that riders should think very carefully if they get a second stop about if it’s a good idea to try again, or accept your horse’s thought that today is not the day to jump that jump.
Pre-2006 I had not thought this way or thought this through. It was the old-school mentality of “get over, under or through”.
I was competing at Galway 2006 when Mia Eriksson died. It was tragic and sobering. My coach, another of her students and I made a pact that Saturday night that one stop or run-out can happen for various reasons; but if we have a second problem we will retire - it is obviously not our day that day.
You know, that is a very interesting idea. The higher the level, the less likely it is for a second refusal puts you in any sort of position to place.
Also, if you only get one opportunity to re-present to a fence, you might do a better job of regrouping (i.e. take a few more seconds to ensure you get it right).
Interesting thought!
SCFarm
Thank you everyone, what an awesome response. This is a very sobering area for us all, but talking about it, like adults, understanding the risks and knowing when to call it a day are vital.
I would appreciate any copies of stories on these or any other fatalities that have been reported in COTH or any other location. The stuff doesn’t appear on the net is really important to filling the blanks.
JER and others my email address is eventingsafety at gmail.com
I have just written something on this topic and am planning more. check it out here http://eventingsafety.wordpress.com/2011/01/07/a-turning-point-i-hope/
Thanks again
John
Any statisic one does has to start with short format. It changed the game.
One can not compare the courses.
One can not compare the course design
One can not compare what TD except.
One can not compare the riders
One cn not compare how horses are preped
One can not compare the type of horses.
One can not compare the riders attitude
Its Apple and Oranges
Its a completly differant game now.
Andrews or Chrises courses would be today unaceptable, dinosors of a time long gone.
Gnep, yes it is a different game.
But what surprised me is that the number of deaths hasn’t really changed since the short format came into play in 2004. Considering the are way more people (more starts at least) eventing today than there were in the early 2000’s, in real terms the number of fatalities seems to have gone down.
John,
Are you just looking at rider deaths? I think that is an incomplete assessment. Just looking at rider deaths as a measure of safety would be a false measure and tend to possibly lead to a incorrect belief of the state of the sport. If you really are about safety you need to examine the complete range of injury for both horse and rider. Only then can you do a accurate measure of safety.
Thus, these question MUST be addressed as well:
What about horse deaths?
What about severity of injury in horse or rider?
Equipment changes over time?
Rule changes over time? What is your baseline time comparison (e.g. are you using the change to short format as the separator?)?
Is there commonality of the venues or regions?
There are plenty more questions but only after data is gathered and analyzed can they be asked or considered.
Reed
[QUOTE=RAyers;5343898]
John,
Are you just looking at rider deaths? I think that is an incomplete assessment. Just looking at rider deaths as a measure of safety would be a false measure and tend to possibly lead to a incorrect belief of the state of the sport. If you really are about safety you need to examine the complete range of injury for both horse and rider. Only then can you do a accurate measure of safety.
Thus, these question MUST be addressed as well:
What about horse deaths?
What about severity of injury in horse or rider?
Equipment changes over time?
Rule changes over time? What is your baseline time comparison (e.g. are you using the change to short format as the separator?)?
Is there commonality of the venues or regions?
There are plenty more questions but only after data is gathered and analyzed can they be asked or considered.
Reed[/QUOTE]
I completely agree with Reed. Whether someone dies versus survives is as often a function of the medical care available as of the accident itself.
And then there’s the pesky “n”, the number of starters. Reed, you mentioned that the number of starters is increasing, but Eventing Nation recently posted numbers of starters by division for some well-known venues, and there’s been a sharp decrease.
Safety John, thanks for looking at this, and IFG, she one’s smart lady who would be a great assset to your investigations. (As well as many others who post here: Reed, JER, Gnep, etc.).
Would it be possible to also find out which horses that died of heart attacks where on various supplements? By supplements I mean anything other than grass, water, hay, and basic commercial grain. Like herbals and special vitamins. I cannot be the only person that thinks many of these sudden heart attacks are linked to something people are putting in these horses.
Quote:
Or
My thoughts on this: If you are riding an experienced (upper level) horse, and it refuses twice at the same obstacle, it’s probably not a very good idea to make a 3rd try.
…
I don’t know if we should have a rule change limiting upper level riders to 1 stop per obstacle or not. But I do know that riders should think very carefully if they get a second stop about if it’s a good idea to try again, or accept your horse’s thought that today is not the day to jump that jump.
That is already happening, as a side effect of the “established qualification” rule (Prelim and above).
If you get Eliminated for jumping penalies on cross country twice within a time period, you have to drop down a level. But retirements (becuse they could be for many different reasons) don’t affect the “established qualification”.
So MANY upper level riders are chosing to retire after two refusals, in order to maintain the horse’s qualification.
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