[QUOTE=laurenvpd11;9042802]
I have mentioned that to my vet as well…he didn’t seem concerned. He said that could be an issue, but is “low on the list of things to investigate”
Would an ovarian cyst only present cyclical problems or would it present consistent problems?
What kind of diagnostics would be involved to find out any hormonal issues?[/QUOTE]
These types of problems are generally diagnosed through rectal exams, ultra sound, testing of hormone levels, etc.
Okay, thank you! 
Mmm…in all honestly I watch the video all the way through and I say this is a horse who simply needs to learn to go forward. The minute she kicks out you back off and she knows it. The draft crosses are extremely smart. I have had many and the things they can do to get out of having to work is pretty darn amazing. I would have a totally different approach going back to lunging to establish going forward and if you are scared to ride forward then having someone getting on that can deal with the must go forward issue. Even when you are trotting around you are no where near going forward. I think she just has you being worried so much that she is hurting that you feel bad about thinking it is a behavior issue.
I wish it was that easy. I am the one who started her under saddle, I am not afraid to ride her forward. I did months of ground work, lunging, and long-lining before I ever even got on her back.
I have also had my trainer ride her and she did the same behavior with my trainer.
I can post a video of what she used to look like at the trot if that would help.
You are definitely right about the draft crosses being very smart, they’re so perceptive! I thoroughly enjoy working with them, they make things so much easier (as long as they aren’t using their smart against you :lol:)
[quote]“What did the bone scan reveal for your horse? Did you have to do further diagnostic investigation, or did the bone scan confirm things for you so that you could then proceed to treatment?” [quote]
It revealed no major inflammation other than a slight amount in his left stifle, which is what we needed to know. The vets were finally able to diagnose a mild upward fixation of the patella in his left hind (we were focused on his hock). After that we were able to move forward with a plan to get him stronger along with Estrone injections.
2 seconds into the video and I think it’s EPSM/PSSM. I would be really surprised if it is not.
The other thing it could be, given the overall weakness behind and the short-striding, is something in her back - possibly from the saddle fit? I know you said you already checked it… but I would be checking it again, and x-raying the back… Saddles can fit on paper and still be very sore for the horse, ask me how I know…
I don’t think it is a stifle issue, from watching the video… but I have been wrong before… To me it looks more like she is backsore somewhere.
The other thing it could be, since she is a mare, is ovarian cyst… or ulcers…
The good thing is about PSSM, is that it’s “fairly” manageable as far as ailments go… first step is changing the diet to something low starch + high fat… Given her breed, I would also keep shivers in the back of my mind as it has many similar (but not identical) symptoms… especially difficulty for farriers behind.
[QUOTE=Jleegriffith;9043317]
Mmm…in all honestly I watch the video all the way through and I say this is a horse who simply needs to learn to go forward. The minute she kicks out you back off and she knows it. The draft crosses are extremely smart. I have had many and the things they can do to get out of having to work is pretty darn amazing. I would have a totally different approach going back to lunging to establish going forward and if you are scared to ride forward then having someone getting on that can deal with the must go forward issue. Even when you are trotting around you are no where near going forward. I think she just has you being worried so much that she is hurting that you feel bad about thinking it is a behavior issue.[/QUOTE]
I thought the same thing. The horse is NOT going forward at all. To the point where even if it is a physical issue, you can’t see it. She is so behind your leg it is little wonder she protests when it is applied. Kicking out like that is her giving you the middle finger.
It could be a chicken-and-egg situation. Which came first: the lack of forward or the protesting against going forward?
Either way, I would put this horse in a 5-6-days-a-week program of nothing but FORWARD for a month to see what happens. Even if it is a physical issue, it should then present itself more clearly for the vet to diagnose.
Thanks for the YT upload!
She’s cute as a button! She definitely has a lot of draft characteristics.
The fact that she has issues outside of just being ridden tell me whatever’s going on isn’t just about being behind your leg/not being forward. A lazy horse doesn’t carry that to the farrier and picking up a hind leg.
When you had the saddle evaluate, what exactly was done?
When she started this behavior, did it come at or a bit after a point where you were starting to ask for more work? Was she kicking out early in the rides, or later into them?
Her age at which she started to exhibit this behavior is fairly typical for the onset of EPSM symptoms, at least from what I’ve gleaned. I’m still glad you’re sending (or sent) hair off.
I noticed in the video that at some point she was much more relaxed and willing, though even then still very lazy. Is that as good as she gets? Has she been better? I don’t know if you were just content to leave her like that since she wasn’t fussing or (and since I don’t know you or your ability, I don’t know what you know or don’t know, so no offense meant ) if you feel that’s her "forward and happy " mode.
In other words, how does her best movement in the video compare to this
After the injection had time to work I got on and gave her a test ride. It was obvious to me, and those watching, that her trot had improved. She was moving forward willingly and was stepping under with her hind legs.
[QUOTE=DarkBayUnicorn;9043538]
I thought the same thing. The horse is NOT going forward at all. To the point where even if it is a physical issue, you can’t see it. She is so behind your leg it is little wonder she protests when it is applied. Kicking out like that is her giving you the middle finger.
It could be a chicken-and-egg situation. Which came first: the lack of forward or the protesting against going forward?
Either way, I would put this horse in a 5-6-days-a-week program of nothing but FORWARD for a month to see what happens. Even if it is a physical issue, it should then present itself more clearly for the vet to diagnose.[/QUOTE]
Hm… I agree the horse is not very forward… but I see it more as “the horse is not forward because of a physical issue”. Even in the clips where she is going more forward you can see a lot of tension in the pelvis + hips, tightness in the back and gait asymmetry behind. Couple that with the obvious inversion of the back + upright neck and I think the horse is protesting because of a pain issue over a lack of wanting to go forward.
I think when a horse is being pokey because they’re lazy, there’s not the same amount of tension.
I’m wondering what she looks like sans rider, if it’s the same kick-out + reluctance?
I would almost suggest putting her on a “bute trial” for a week, but if ulcers are a concern you would be exacerbating them if she has them…
[QUOTE=Jleegriffith;9043317]
Mmm…in all honestly I watch the video all the way through and I say this is a horse who simply needs to learn to go forward. The minute she kicks out you back off and she knows it. The draft crosses are extremely smart. I have had many and the things they can do to get out of having to work is pretty darn amazing. I would have a totally different approach going back to lunging to establish going forward and if you are scared to ride forward then having someone getting on that can deal with the must go forward issue. Even when you are trotting around you are no where near going forward. I think she just has you being worried so much that she is hurting that you feel bad about thinking it is a behavior issue.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but don’t you think the mare has some legitimate pain back there?
I’m all for teaching a horse to be polite and (gasp) even to sublimate some pain. (All great campaigners do this… to some extent…sooner or later…whether we want to admit it or not… whether we teach them to or just capitalize on their having a huge heart and figured it out by themselves.) But if this horse is going to be this unsound, there’s no point in teaching her that.
You can’t train them to accept training and to endure significant amounts of pain at the same time.
The mare was on Equioxx for a period of time without change. How long?
[QUOTE=JB;9043606]
The mare was on Equioxx for a period of time without change. How long?[/QUOTE]
Good question, but IME, prescribed doses of Equioxx won’t do the kind of pain control that is diagnostically useful. In other words, if I were going to do a Bute Test, I’d do it with bute and I’d be liberal with the amount of bute I used. At least, this was they way vets taught me to do it.
If this were my horse, I’d do a 5 day bute test.
I’d also want to see how the mare moved if she were lunged and asked to really go forward. I’d want to see the same thing on straight lines. The video raises those questions for me.
Neither are likely to show any improvement for muscle issues, and I don’t have enough experience with Equioxxto have an opinion one way or another. I know some say it works better for their horse, others say bute works better. But I too would do a 5-7 day bute test to see if things changed at all, loading up with 1gm twice a day, and possibly staying at that level the whole time. And I’d be using Ulcergard/Abprazole/ranitidine/something for the duration, and a few days after, just in case.
Ditto to the extra questions! Especially at liberty.
I got a hair sample today and will be mailing it off shortly.
I do have one question though, would a horse with EPSM/PSSM display the same “irritated” behavior on the lunge line? Whenever I lunge her she acts and looks fine. It is only when I ride her that she acts this way.
I realize she is not going forward, it is because she is in pain.
I tried “riding it out” and it did not work. I have tried using a crop and I have tried using spurs, neither worked. My trainer is the one who told me initially that she was hurting and needed to be seen. Before that I thought that my mare was just being lazy.
I am in the process of uploading videos taken before all of this started, I will share the link once they are uploaded.
I got a hair sample today and will be mailing it out shortly.
Question, would an EPSM/PSSM horse display the same symptoms on the lunge line? Whenever I lunge my mare she looks and acts normal.
I am thinking about getting her checked for an ovarian cyst after I get the results from the PSSM test.
No problem! Thank you
My saddle has an interchangeable gullet, so we had the gullet replaced for a wider one and also had some flocking adjustments done.
I would say she started this behavior a few months after asking her for more. In our early on rides she was a saint. The first time I ever asked her to canter under saddle she picked it up immediately, no fuss. She was such a breeze.
As far as the willing clip of the video, at the moment, that is as good as it gets. I didn’t want to push her too much, not because I am scared of her reaction, but I wanted to leave her alone for trying. I have had much better rides on her before all of this started.
No offense taken btw 
She was on Equioxx for 6 days, as per the vet that prescribed it.
I do have one question though, would a horse with EPSM/PSSM display the same “irritated” behavior on the lunge line? Whenever I lunge her she acts and looks fine. It is only when I ride her that she acts this way.
I think it all depends. Carrying weight and balancing that weight adds a whole new dimension to the work, so issues under saddle aren’t always going to show up at liberty or on the lunge.
That makes sense, just curious
I also uploaded a couple more videos
Talia trot work before issues : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V62_r1M0LoM
(sorry about the video quality)
Talia lunging before issues : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6N-qd8ZXYs
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