Stifle Issue?

[mvp]

To me the Before and After look so different that I’d do a bute test first. The mare looks so different behind, all the way up to the SI joint. Her demeanor looks different: Her tail is relaxed and she never gets “stung” and takes a short step and/or kicks out. Note that she does swish her tail the whole time in the “after” footage.

And my vet would have prescribed more that 2g/24 hours. The point is to kill pain “dead” so that you can take it “officially” out of the equation. For a large horse, the dose might be 2g AM and PM for 5 days. Ride all days, but really pay attention to any contrasts you see between day 0, Day 3 and Day 5. The 0/3 comparison tells you how much pain was involved because you are comparing no bute to Ahelluvalotofit. And comparing Day 3 with Day 5 tells you if riding is making the problem worse or whether it’s staying the same and not piercing through all that bute.

This isn’t the only way to do a bute test, so certainly ask others for their protocol. I hope you can find an answer, OP.

[laurenvpd11]

She is definitely a much different ride now versus before.

I wasn’t particularly impressed/thrilled with the first vet I saw (who prescribed the Equioxx).
Could I administer Equioxx instead of bute to perform the same “test”? (It would be nice to use more than 6 pills since I spent close to $80 on it haha)

Thank you for your input! I am hoping that I am close to figuring out what her problem is.

[DJohn]

I am with mvp on everything he/she has said so far.

Although, I do see in the round pen video, the same “stabbing” motion that the hind right demonstrates when you ride her in the kicking video.

I’m honestly not 100% sure where the lameness is coming from, but it’s not hoof/hock/stifle, it’s higher up. SI or her back (kissing spines). She is clearly in pain as if you watch her mouth, she is worrying and gaping her jaw.

I wouldn’t listen to the people who say it is a forward issue. It is not. The poor horse is clearly hurting, her whole body is telling. Her back is dropped, she stabs the hind leg straight up and down rather than reaching forward and under. I’d investigate SI and failing anything there, I’d do rads on her back.

The only thing about the bone scan is that it will tell you WHERE to look, but you will still need further diagnostics beyond that. It’s not a one-off deal, but it can be extremely helpful.

Good luck, OP, I hope you can find out what is wrong!

[laurenvpd11]

The round pen video was taken in May…it may have been the early signs of whatever is going on. She is a tough girl, so maybe she started displaying signs of discomfort later on. Or it could have been the terrible footing in the round pen, it is very deep sand and does not get drug consistently (just a thought). I would post another lunging video, but I am not sure I have one that is worth posting…it is so hard to lunge and video at the same time.

THANK YOU! It frustrates me the amount of people that want to blame me for not pushing her more or for saying that she is just making excuses. I know it is very common for horses to do so, but I have been her sole rider for her entire “career” and I do not let her get away with things. The significance of the difference between “before” and “after” is night and day.

My plan atm is to get results back from EPSM/PSSM (want to rule this out first, especially since the test is only $40) and then proceed from there to my next vet appointment. My vet friend (who also knows this mare personally) said she is leaning towards SI as well. I have a feeling that will be my next thing to have checked.

Thank you, I really appreciate your input!!

[beowulf]

What a difference in the before and after…

but I see something ELSE in the before. I would not call her 100% sound in those BEFORE videos. She looks funky behind, but not as drastic. In the round pen video, it’s hard to tell because the footing looks a little deeper in some places, but she takes a few funny steps and jerks her head up as a result.

In the riding video, it’s more consistent - I am seeing she is stepping shorter on that RH… but I actually think it’s the LH that has something going on higher up. I’m wondering if she is deloading that LH limb by taking shorter steps with the RH. Now I can see why the first vet thought hocks - for a moment I thought I saw something in that LH hock.

I would not rule out saddle fit yet. I don’t as a rule find that interchangeable gullet saddles work for horses, but other people have had different experiences. IME it’s made many a painful horse. That and, in many (clinical) cases that I’ve seen, a saddle-sore horse is originally presented for hock + SI pain… hocks and/or SI are injected and down the road they change the saddle and the symptoms almost completely disappear. Hock pain IME is usually secondary to something else (barring trauma/injury to the hock) and in my experience it is almost always secondary to stifle and SI pain. So any time I see ‘sore hocks’ I treat it as a red herring and look for the underlying cause.

BTW… You can slow down your own videos - it’s a good way to see if the horse is tracking up and see anything that might have been missed “Real time” - I’m guessing the vet saw that weird twist in the hock at the trot and went from there.

[JB]

I’m interested in the saddle angle as well.

Changeable gullets do work - on some horses all the time, on some horses some of the time. They can work for a segment of horses through a couple of changes, UNTIL you change into one wide enough that changes the entire shape in addition to widening the front of the gullet. But more than 2 gullet changes, often only 1, and you don’t have the same shape saddle, therefore it no longer fits the horse, independent of width up front. There’s just more to it than that.

So yes, a single gullet size increase, let alone 2 widths’ increase, can alter the fit enough that the entire saddle no longer fits.

And absolutely ditto Beowulf’s comment about hocks usually being a symptom (at least to start) of something else. That something else is often the hind feet, but can also be saddle fit and sore front feet.

[laurenvpd11]

The round pen footing was really terrible, making her look really weird at times.

I know a bunch of people do not particularly like interchangeable gullet systems. I got the saddle because it was in my budget and it fit her and I at the time I purchased. I knew she was going to be growing and changing and I (unfortunately) do not have a large budget or the means to be doing a lot of saddle selling and buying.
The saddle fitter I used has a lot of experience in fitting and people travel to use her, so I do trust her opinion.

I have tried riding her in multiple different saddles and also bareback. I know things take time (i.e. her back would need time to not be sore and she would have to realize pain wasn’t going to ensue from the new saddle) but anytime I have tried her in a different saddle the issue was still there. Towards the beginning of me noticing an issue, bareback was a much more pleasant ride…but now she has gotten so bad I won’t even ride her bareback as I feel I am doing nothing but causing pain

I had a video editor on my phone in which I would use the “slo-mo” effect often to critique myself and also my horse. Unfortunately my phone is on its last leg so I cannot really utilize that app anymore.

[laurenvpd11]

I will say when I purchased her, her feet were horrible! She had been out to pasture, and apparently forgotten about. Her feet were brittle and flaky. I have been keeping her feet maintained and they are so much better now!! They are by no means perfect, her fronts are still sensitive at times (prone to minor cracking during dry summer months). Her front left has grown out a little wonky due to a previous abscess she had in early 2016.

[JB]

Any chance you’d be willing to take and post good hoof pictures? You’d have to load them to flickr or photobucket or somewhere, then post the links
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html

[TWH_Girl]

I have spent the last year diagnosing and treating my younger guy with stifle issues. I will say stifles definitely appear to be a big part of the problem. The fact the horse blocked (even partially) sound tells me that is at least part of the problem. Not to rule out saddle fit or less impactful issues, but I just don’t think that is it. The horse is choppy and off.

SI and stifles often go hand in hand. At this point, some diagnostic/therapeutic injections of the stifle and SI may be warranted.

Prior to injections, the 3 day bute test is a good idea, to rule out a mechanical issue (upward patellar fixation) vs. inflammatory issue.

http://www.atlantaequine.com/pages/bute_test.html

[laurenvpd11]

I will try and get some good pictures when I see her next. I have uploaded a few photos that I already had.

http://s179.photobucket.com/user/animaluvrusa11/library/Talia?sort=3&page=1

I know her fronts are uneven, but they have always been that way. None of my farriers or vets have said anything about it. Although it may be worth pointing out at my next appointment. Farrier will be seeing her on Monday and I will ask him about it as well.

[laurenvpd11]

That is what the vet and I were thinking as well. I will probably be getting x rays done once the test results from EPSM/PSSM come in. I want to go ahead and rule that out first before I proceed.

Thank you for the link!

[JB]

The LF is a little concerning to me. See how the profile is a bit convex/outward curving? That should be flat and straight. It almost always signifies a coffin bone that’s too low in the back. That’s almost always from chronically underrun and crushed heels. The fact that her hairline curves up is a good indicator her heels are underrun. It’s a bit hard to tell with the shadows and stuff, but they do appear to be too far forward.

It’s hard to tell too much about the RF, since the angle of the pic is from so far forward. Clearly though it’s a more upright foot, and at first glance actually appears to be pretty well managed.

I love that she appears pretty darn symmetrical in the rear view!

She’s definitely pretty straight behind (side view). Is she a bit butt-high like that pic makes her look?

I think I’d like to see the saddle slid back a little, 1-2". I wonder if it’s impeding her shoulders.

[laurenvpd11]

Unfortunately after her abscess her LF grew out convex like that. I didn’t have her very long before the abscess happened so I am not sure if her hoof looked like that before.

Do you have any ideas of what could be done to fix this problem? Should I ask the farrier anything specific on Monday?

Sometimes when I look at her, she looks butt high and other times she does not. I think she may be slightly butt high…I will try to post more side shots to show you what I mean.

I could try sliding the saddle back some more next time. I try to keep it off of her shoulders as much as possible. I just got a new girth and it is a little larger than the one I had been using so that will make it easier for me to slide the saddle back some.

[JB]

the convex profile is almost always a farrier issue, and it “simply” involves correct trimming,which includes getting the heels trimmed properly.

That’s interesting that she sometimes does and doesn’t look butt high. To me, that could easily be indicative of how she’s standing and holding herself. In other words, she could be posturing such that she’s propping her hind end up to relieve some discomfort.

[laurenvpd11]

Interesting…well the farrier I am using now is different than the one I have been using for the past two years. I will bring it to his attention and see what he has to say. I have only used him once so far, but he seems like a competent guy that wants what is best for the horse. I think he should be able to resolve the issue.

Okay for some reason I cannot log back into my original photo bucket account, so I created a new one. Here are some more pictures
http://s1244.photobucket.com/user/laurenvpd11/library/?sort=3&page=1

[laurenvpd11]

Update, PSSM test results came back negative. I will be making a vet appointment and moving forward from here. Leaning towards SI injury.

[Ready_To_Riot]

After dealing with something exactly like this since august of 2016 as well, I finally got an answer. Do X-rays and ultrasounds. That’s how we found her torn meniscus. I too say left hind. Not right. Every time you get a kick is when you put your leg on the right. Because she doesn’t want to carry the weight on her left leg. How are her stifles when you touch them?

I could be wrong, and for your sake I hope I am, but she looks just like my mare… good luck

[Kati7095]

@laurenvpd11

Update, PSSM test results came back negative. I will be making a vet appointment and moving forward from here. Leaning towards SI injury.

Keep in mind there are other types of PSSM that aren’t detected with the type 1 test. If you are on Facebook, I suggest looking up “PSSM Forum”.
I knew nothing about PSSM and spent over a year trying to figure out why my mare had such a drastic behavior change. Turns out she has a subset of PSSM2, called Myofibrillar Myopathy. There are people on PSSM Forum that can look at your horses pedigree and tell you if they are have suspects for the disease. There are also lots of people that share symptoms they have noticed.
Good luck!

[laurenvpd11]

I have had X-rays done of her hocks and stifles, they didn’t show anything abnormal.

I have been considering getting a bone scan done just to try and pinpoint what area we really need to check out.

What you can’t tell from the video is that she actually acts irritable/in pain even when I verbally ask for a forward cue. I don’t have to put leg on at all for her to tell me she’s not happy /: