Still think drafts can't do dressage?

[BigMama1]

This handsome Clyde x Hackney did his first national show Grand Prix today in fine style. https://www.facebook.com/meredithrisk/videos/10159089347160019/

Was it perfect? Of course not. Was it awesome? Hell ya! Kudos to his rider / trainer, a local pro here in the Toronto area, and of course to his owner for showing what correct, consistent dressage training and patience can do for any horse, including a former Mennonite carriage horse. That is the kind of result that would impress me when looking for a trainer, more than a GP score on a six-figure, purpose-bred horse.

[csaper58]

He looks very…uneven to me.

Hope it’s just my old computer

[enjoytheride]

I didn’t see any unevenness. He moved exactly like I thought that cross would move!

[rothmpp]

He looks slightly uneven to me behind in some of collected trot work. I’m not entirely sure if it is the coloring on him as well that makes look a bit off. It strikes me more as a strength issue than anything else and that will come. The last extended trot was quite regular.

Will this horse ever represent Canada (I think that is where this rider is from?) in team competition? Of course not. Would 99% of us sell our soul to the devil to put down a ride like this on a horse that did not cost at least five figures just to purchase? Definitely. It was completely respectable, at least to me.

[BigMama1]

@enjoytheride

I didn’t see any unevenness. He moved exactly like I thought that cross would move!

I see some moments with slight loss of balance / rhythm but not “unevenness.”

[CERT]

Thanks for sharing! I agree the uneveness seems like an optical illusion caused by his uneven markings and an occasional loss of balance/weakness, but not bad for a debut, I’ve certainly seen worse!

I know I’m hoping to prove that drafts do dressage with my filly in the coming years (four rides in at three and many, many, many to go!).

[NotAtTheBarn]

That was awesome, thanks for sharing!

[MysticOakRanch]

He got a lot of movement from the Hackney - I wouldn’t call him a draft! Draft cross, yes - but you are seeing the Hackney influence, and some of those horses are really awesome sport horses! Congrats to them!

[luvmyhackney]

Lots of Hackney influence. A friend has a hackney horse from the Amish that she is having retrained in Dressage. He’s quite gorgeous. So much try and just wanting to please. I love a Hackney brain and the fire they have. So much fun.

[BigMama1]

Same trainer has a client with a Clyde / Hackney cross doing Fourth this year. It’s not an uncommon mix around here, often with some TB as well. Often lovely, althetic all-around horses with great brains

[kcmel]

Very cool; thanks for the link. My 6 YO is out of a Hackney/Clydesdale mare, and my dressage trainer keeps telling me he wants to be a Grand Prix horse. Right now his main career path is eventing, but heck in 5 or 6 years I may be ready to stick closer to the ground!

[Draftmare]

The first example clearly got a lot of influence from the DHH side! I would love to find a DHH/Draft cross for my next mount. They are pretty common in the Amish areas around me, I am just worried about PSSM too.

The second example makes me hopeful that maybe my mare and I could one day do regular dressage again. I may see what my scores and comments are like at a show later this year. In past years we always got dinged for lack of a motor. This year I think we may be finally getting it though.

[Lyssabd]

Gotta love a good draft cross!!! Their brains are so good, if you can find one with a good work ethic they’ll go to the ends of the earth for you. Love this test, definitely an inspiration to those of us with “non-traditional” dressage or riding horses. I have a Perch/TB and while he will never get past first or second level (lack of work ethic on both our parts), he’s totally respectable and I wouldn’t trade him for anything. Thanks for sharing this!

[Guyot]

I sincerely hope my first Grand Prix on the draft cross I ride looks as good as this. What a lovely horse with excellent training!

Thanks for posting this, gives me optimism to keep pushing for the passage.

[Crockpot]

This pair certainly deserves a shout out - a great accomplishment for any horse and rider - well done!

but with reference to the thread title, I dont see lots of people insisting that draft crosses ( this is a draft cross)
cannot 'do dressage"

we have all seen examples of draft crosses and yes even drafts ‘doing dressage’.right up to GP

cheers and enjoy the journey:cool:

[BigMama1]

@Crockpot

This pair certainly deserves a shout out - a great accomplishment for any horse and rider - well done!

but with reference to the thread title, I dont see lots of people insisting that draft crosses ( this is a draft cross)
cannot 'do dressage"

we have all seen examples of draft crosses and yes even drafts ‘doing dressage’.right up to GP

cheers and enjoy the journey:cool:

I’m glad your experience regarding draft cross s in dressage has been different than mine. I was told by several people when I bought my draft cross - a few of whom I even used to respect - that he would never be able to “do dressage” or even better, not “real dressage” which to them meant the FEI levels. One in particular was quite insistent that unless you were competing at upper levels on a high quality, purpose bred warmblood, you weren’t really “doing” dressage. I guess the thousands of us competing at the lower levels on our average horses are just pretending to do dressage in her view? Who knows.

Like it or not not there is definitely a strong bias out there, and in our sales program we have had many talented horses get overlooked because they had draft in them and the buyers - despite loving the horse in videos and in person - would only look at warmbloods.

The trainer in this video summed up my thoughts perfectly on her Facebook page when she posted “a good horse is a good horse.” I couldn’t agree more and glad there are so many others out there who feel the same way.

Taking any horse from the basics all the way to GP is tough enough. Doing it on a horse not designed for dressage, while keeping him sound, healthy and enjoying his job is a huge achievement. I’ll be delighted if my horse and I get to Third someday so I have nothing but respect for anyone who can bring a horse all the way.

[Crockpot]

Taking any horse from the basics all the way to GP is tough enough. Doing it on a horse not designed for dressage, while keeping him sound, healthy and enjoying his job is a huge achievement

Yes- and I expect by far most people on here would agree …so…

[BigMama1]

@Crockpot

Yes- and I expect by far most people on here would agree …so…

Not sure your point? I’m not trying to start an argument here, just offering kudos to a local trainer for a job well done.

If you haven’t experienced bias against draft crosses in dressage that’s great. I have, which is why I thought this accomplishment worth highlighting.

[Scribbler]

This was a lovely test overall and the horse is beautifully trained.

That said, compared to a warmblood, his gaits are high rather than long, and he has very little or no suspension. He does not track up behind even at the extended trot. I don’t see a problem with balance, but rather the lack of the natural big floaty gaits that are typical for upper level horses. Of course not all warmbloods have terrific scope either.

I also see the Hackney in him more than the draft cross. I think the relevant question here is more the pros and cons of Hackneys in dressage, rather than drafts. Another kind of draft cross (with TB, QH, Andie) would move very differently and look very different.

As far as biases against draft crosses in dressage, I suspect this stems at least in part from the fact that people do try to create a “back yard gene pool” WB type by mixing TB and drafts. This was the way to get some more bone into jumpers and fox hunters (like with Irish sport horses) before the German WB became popular in the English speaking world and still makes some useful lower level jumpers here (and upper level jumpers in Ireland!). However IME the F1 crosses and even the F2 crosses are quite unpredictable, and you can get everything from a horse that looks like a heavy TB to one that looks like an Andalusian to one that looks like a smaller plow horse, even by the same stallion. There are a number of related Percheron/TB crosses in our area that come out of one riding school’s breeding program, and they look very different.

So “draft cross” is a very wide term. You pretty much need to look at the horse in question and see what it’s turned out like. And realize that even if it has height and hair, it isn’t a Freisian or a WB and will not have those gaits.

I think it is true that if you were heading for international competition, you would not want to start with a draft cross. For that matter, you wouldn’t start with anything other than some specific purpose-bred lines of warmblood — that might well be too hot and too big-moving for most ammies, and too hot for the slower low-level tests.

So the guidelines that would apply for choosing a horse to go to the top internationally don’t really apply to the lower level ammie.

[BigMama1]

@Scribbler

This was a lovely test overall and the horse is beautifully trained.

That said, compared to a warmblood, his gaits are high rather than long, and he has very little or no suspension. He does not track up behind even at the extended trot. I don’t see a problem with balance, but rather the lack of the natural big floaty gaits that are typical for upper level horses. Of course not all warmbloods have terrific scope either.

I also see the Hackney in him more than the draft cross. I think the relevant question here is more the pros and cons of Hackneys in dressage, rather than drafts. Another kind of draft cross (with TB, QH, Andie) would move very differently and look very different.

As far as biases against draft crosses in dressage, I suspect this stems at least in part from the fact that people do try to create a “back yard gene pool” WB type by mixing TB and drafts. This was the way to get some more bone into jumpers and fox hunters (like with Irish sport horses) before the German WB became popular in the English speaking world and still makes some useful lower level jumpers here (and upper level jumpers in Ireland!). However IME the F1 crosses and even the F2 crosses are quite unpredictable, and you can get everything from a horse that looks like a heavy TB to one that looks like an Andalusian to one that looks like a smaller plow horse, even by the same stallion. There are a number of related Percheron/TB crosses in our area that come out of one riding school’s breeding program, and they look very different.

So “draft cross” is a very wide term. You pretty much need to look at the horse in question and see what it’s turned out like. And realize that even if it has height and hair, it isn’t a Freisian or a WB and will not have those gaits.

I think it is true that if you were heading for international competition, you would not want to start with a draft cross. For that matter, you wouldn’t start with anything other than some specific purpose-bred lines of warmblood — that might well be too hot and too big-moving for most ammies, and too hot for the slower low-level tests.

So the guidelines that would apply for choosing a horse to go to the top internationally don’t really apply to the lower level ammie.

Agree 100%. If you wanted to compete on the Formula One racing circuit, you wouldn’t try to qualify driving a Honda Civic. But for most people looking for a fun, safe, economical car to drive every day, it’s a great choice.

Same with horses. Few of us have goals of going to the Olympics; fewer still are going to make it. For those looking for a fun, safe ride, breed shouldn’t be the first consideration. This guy is never going to move like an international-level warmblood and that’s ok.