Stock Tie Woes

[linquest]

Thanks wannabe! I can’t wait to try these when I get home. But I’ll have to reserve the pat on the back until I know I can actually do it

As to the square knot thing, I did look online to a couple webpages on tying square knots with scarves. Wannabe is right, the stock tie has more steps after the square knot (the finished products look different), and the square knot method won’t work when you have the slotted stock tie or one that isn’t a mostly straight piece of cloth.

Button on back of collar- I was also thinking it might be for a pre-tied stock tie, or perhaps for those chokers that the H/J people wear instead of the stock tie (lucky b*stards!). Hat cord also makes sense to me.

[Beverley]

@lesson junkie;3559683

Isn’t the button on the back of the collar for your hat cord?

No, the hat cord attaches to a loop inside your coat collar.

[Painted_Wings]

I use a square knot

With a stock tie with a slot. Can’t imagine that I’ve been doing it wrong for 25+ yrs.

I’ll have to look at the instructions again. Don’t know if I could even be retrained at this point.

-Leslie

[altjaeger]

Hey, if you’re happy with the knot you’ve been doing, why change it? The knot I see in the photo of you in your profile looks very nice!

[Beverley]

@linquest;3559768

As to the square knot thing, I did look online to a couple webpages on tying square knots with scarves. Wannabe is right, the stock tie has more steps after the square knot (the finished products look different), and the square knot method won’t work when you have the slotted stock tie or one that isn’t a mostly straight piece of cloth.

Ya know, it’s possible that these online instructions are wrong, too. I haven’t looked at them yet actually. But it IS fundamentally a square knot neatened up and then cross over the flaps, pin through knot, safety pin ends to shirt to prevent flapping and have sufficient pins should the stock tie be needed for bandaging horse or rider. Unless of course you are dealing with a fourfold stock. Then way more pins among other things.

I’ve been hunting since '71 and was mainly taught by reading Wadsworth for the stock tie as well as being taught by folks that had themselves been hunting for decades. I’ve noticed over the years that even seemingly authoritative establishments (Horse Country comes to mind) have wrong stuff in their catalogs and in instructions. Stuff evolves, granted, always has, but it IS amusing to see something referred to as ‘traditional’ or ‘correct’ when MFHs of the 70s would have very sternly said otherwise.

[altjaeger]

Beverly, you’re the 3rd person who has said something about crossing over the ends of the tie after it has been square knotted and one end drawn thru the knot. At that point you are left with a knot and 2 hangie down parts. What does crossing-them over mean? I can’t visualize that. How do you cross over the ends when they’re lying together?

[linquest]

OK, wannabe’s directions are getting me started off in the right direction. I think I’m still getting tripped up about what happens after the first knot is tied - seems around step 4 of the Libertyville Saddle instructions and Step 5 of the Horse Country ones. Help–I’m this close to buying a pre-tied and praying that the Hunting Gods don’t strike me down!!

[citydog]

It’s still essentially a square knot, I think, but doing the thing with the looping (as opposed to just the usual straightforward left-over-right, right-over-left) just allows you to end up with a square knot that doesn’t crush the flat part during the tying of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKnGnyF7LwY

[linquest]

From the comments to that video, I’m glad that I’m not the only who still doesn’t get it!

[altjaeger]

[QUOTE=citydog;3561696]
It’s still essentially a square knot, I think, but doing the thing with the looping (as opposed to just the usual straightforward left-over-right, right-over-left) just allows you to end up with a square knot that doesn’t crush the flat part during the tying of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKnGnyF7LwY[/QUOTE]

I was afraid someone would say something like this–that although the steps were described differently that it was still a square knot. I’m not good enough mechanically to say that is wrong. I’ll just say that the steps people seem to be doing are right-over-left-under-and-thru followed by right-under-left-over-and-thru. For this to be a square knot,

left-over-right-under-and-thru must equal right-under-left-over-and-thru

I admit the terms are reversed but since the left piece is just kept straight and all the action is done by the right, I’m just not able to see how they equate. :no:

ETA:

Also, although the result may be much the same, in one case, the piece that is looped around and that you are pulling on to bring the knot up comes out the left side and in the other case it comes out the right side.

Still later edit:

citydog and the others are correct in that the resulting knot is a square knot. However, it is reversed – i.e., the second pull thru comes out the right instead of the left. Viewed from the back even that difference would vanish. It’s just that the road to get to the square knot is different – and for a good reason, each end piece is given an equal amount of work and thus the ends come out even.

[Beverley]

@wanabe;3561515

Beverly, you’re the 3rd person who has said something about crossing over the ends of the tie after it has been square knotted and one end drawn thru the knot. At that point you are left with a knot and 2 hangie down parts. What does crossing-them over mean? I can’t visualize that. How do you cross over the ends when they’re lying together?

Well, the Horse Girl TV thing has it right. Crossing them over is just what the person does after tying the knot! And before inserting the pin. The model did not make clear that you really do need to snag that knot- easier on the material used but tougher on the cotton piquet stocks I prefer. What is not well explained is that after that first step you really are taking the next loop through as a square knot.

Really, get a copy of Wadsworth, the diagram is easy-peasy or was to me as a college frosh!

[altjaeger]

[QUOTE=linquest;3561647]
OK, wannabe’s directions are getting me started off in the right direction. I think I’m still getting tripped up about what happens after the first knot is tied - seems around step 4 of the Libertyville Saddle instructions and Step 5 of the Horse Country ones. Help–I’m this close to buying a pre-tied and praying that the Hunting Gods don’t strike me down!![/QUOTE]

First, do you understand how to start out? What to do with the buttonhole – if you have one, and what the slot in the tie is for? You should be able to get to the point where the tie is completely around your throat, including across the front, and the two end pieces are coming down onto your left and right chest. (As someone else said, you may find it easier to slip one end thru the slot and slip the resulting loop down over your head.)

Next it’s a simple right over left, behind, and up thru the loop and let that piece drop down and hang in front of the other. I think you’re getting this far. Be sure to pull this knot tight.

The piece you brought around under and thru is now lying on top of the other piece (if you let them both go). Lets call that piece (the one in front), the left piece, now. (If you pull up on it, you’ll see it points to the left, slightly.)

You now have two choices. The 3 diagrams I linked to show this next (in effect). Slide right under left, then over and then behind. Pull this end out to the left, and as you do, the piece you took around the other piece begins to pull up into a knot that looks like a cylinder with its axis vertical and then more and more like a cylinder with its axis horizontal.

Or, you can do a true square knot. This way, you take the left piece (which is hanging in front of the right piece) and move it to the right, then behind the hanging down piece, then come around in front, and thru the loop formed. Pull this end out to the right, and as you do, the piece you took around the other piece begins to pull up into a knot that looks more and more like a horizontal cylinder.

You wind up, in either case, with a knot that looks like a horizontal cylinder, with one end piece coming out of each end of the cylinder.

Now for the finish.

Let the two ends hang down. They loop a bit like droopy dog’s ears.
Place your thumbs about 1 inch from the knot and behind each piece so that the back of each thumb is lying against your chest. Your fingers will naturally go to the front side of each piece. Lift both hands and simultaneously rotate your elbows (which were sticking out away from your body to each side) in where they lie tight against each side. What WERE the backs of each end piece are now pointing toward each other – touching, in fact. Leave one piece against the knot and your chest but slant it down and across to the opposite chest. Lift the other end piece over that slanted end piece and similarly slant it diagonally down to its opposite chest. Pin everything in place with a small piece of the knot behind showing in the V formed by the intersection of the two end pieces.

If you don’t understand any step here, just ask me.

[citydog]

[QUOTE=wanabe;3561952]

I admit the terms are reversed but since the left piece is just kept straight and all the action is done by the right, I’m just not able to see how they equate. :no:[/QUOTE]

Try it with a piece of rope and not a stock tie and look at the knot you end up with.

[altjaeger]

[QUOTE=citydog;3562351]
Try it with a piece of rope and not a stock tie and look at the knot you end up with.[/QUOTE]

It comes down to semantics, I guess. Is a square knot one formed by left-over-right followed by right-over-left or is it one that finishes up in a certain way?

I’ll grant you that it is probably the latter. But when people say “tie a square knot”, then they’ve told me to do the former – which ISN’T what you want to do.

The reason you don’t wan’t to do a right-over-left followed by a left-over-right – why the right-over-left followed by the right-UNDER-left move is better – can be seen if we stop referring to “left” and “right” and substitute “a” and “b”, instead. If we do it the way recommended in those diagrams, although a square knot is the result, you make the first knot with “a” and the second knot with “b”. This results in the tie coming out with equal length end pieces.

[wateryglen]

sheesh!!

Wanabe…STEP AWAY FROM THE STOCK TIE!!! You are outa control and confusing the heck outa everybody!!! Me most of all and I’M a good stock tie consultant well known in these parts for her froo-froo poofiness and 4 fold skills!!! :yes:

Wear a pre-tied and just go hunting puhlease!!!

[Towerkeeper_2]

I know, I know – Button on shirt collar

The button on the back of your shirt collar is for a matching buttonhole, slightly off center back, in the stock to prevent the back of your stock from riding up.

Traditional separate collars for shirts always have this button on the shirt collar band and a corresponding buttonhole on the collar to prevent unsightly gapping.

[altjaeger]

[QUOTE=wateryglen;3563224]
Wanabe…STEP AWAY FROM THE STOCK TIE!!! You are outa control and confusing the heck outa everybody!!! Me most of all and I’M a good stock tie consultant well known in these parts for her froo-froo poofiness and 4 fold skills!!! :yes:

Wear a pre-tied and just go hunting puhlease!!! :D[/QUOTE]

LOL, I’ve finished my analysis and am done. Just waiting to see if linquest can follow what I’ve written.

[altjaeger]

[QUOTE=Towerkeeper 2;3563271]
The button on the back of your shirt collar is for a matching buttonhole, slightly off center back, in the stock to prevent the back of your stock from riding up.

Traditional separate collars for shirts always have this button on the shirt collar band and a corresponding buttonhole on the collar to prevent unsightly gapping.[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s 3 theories now. I will leave that mystery unsolved since I know it has nothing to do with the tying of my stock.

[linquest]

[QUOTE=wanabe;3563278]
LOL, I’ve finished my analysis and am done. Just waiting to see if linquest can follow what I’ve written.[/QUOTE]

Someone just pass me the dunce cap, will ya? :lol: I’ll try again when I get home and PM wanabe if I have any more questions, so as not to continue exposing my ineptness to this forum :winkgrin: This is a perfect example of how your parents are NOT always right (I can’t tie a stock tie and they wanted me to be an ENGINEER?)

Must dig out my hopelessly-buried Wadsworth. I am going hunting next Monday! If all else fails, I’ll wear a pre-tied and stuff my untied stock tie into my pocket lest I break my arm and need a sling (which will clearly be yet another challenge Which reminds me that I still need to buy a flask to carry my whiskey–the more important question then is Glenlivet French Oaked 15 year or Johnny Walker Green Label?